In darn near every book or magazine article I ever read talks about how bad the movie The Conqueror was and how Duke never should have did it. I, for one, liked it alot. who else enjoyed it? I know critics hated his films most of the time, but how do you fans feel about The Conqueror? Is there a movie that you dis-liked other then The Conqueror? I didn't care for Jet Pilot or Big Jim McLain but can't say I hated them. The only movie I won't watch again is Donovans Reef. Don't like it (though most fans love it). Just not my kinda Duke film. That's the only one, though. How do you all feel? dukefan1

Legend of the lost and Flame of Barbarry coast are the worst films I have ever seen, they are bad beyond belief.

:huh:

Quite fankly, The Conqueror wasn't that bad. I think its just that everyone not used to John Wayne portraying any character but a military or cowboy personality. Personaly, I don't blame Wayne for the movie. I blame Howard Hughs, as he is one of the worst directors in the business. you can see it in The Jet Pilot. I have both movies, but don't watch them much.
Flame of the Barbary Coast is not that bad, just not that exciting.
The worst I can think of is Rooster Cogburn & the Lady. Just something about the movie.
But to each their own.

I do not know about the movie, but it was bad for his HEALTH! His and everyone else's. If you have not heard, the movie was shot in the Utah desert on the fringe of a nuclear test range. Just about everyone connected with the film contracted cancer of one kind or another. A couple of truckloads of sand from the site were taken back to Hollywood for studio shots. God knows how many other actors were exposed to that radioactive sand.

I think that this is an unsubstantiated rumour. John Waynes six pack a day smoking habit had more to do with him contracting cancer, somthing which he would admit to himself as he gave up smoking after his first confrontation with cancer.

B)

My least favorite movie is Wake of the Red Witch. Haven't seen The Conquerer yet. ;)

I acknowledge that Wayne, and others in the cast, smoked like there was no tomorrow, but there was quite a high rate of cancer (not only lung) among people associated with that movie.

One more thing, my least favorite movies are;

Hellfighters-If only for the sight of Wayne in that red jumpsuit.

Any movie between Big Trail and Stagecoach

Yo Dustin everone who died of cancer on the set of that movie had another common denominator they were all chain smokers.

You sholud also check out some of Dukes B movies in the 1930 some are pretty good just dont try to be cynical when you watch them. Winds from the Wasteland is excellent watch the colour version Johns image is clearly taking shape in this movie. And smokey will be interested to know he is a pretty nifty Cowboy in this movie with cream trousers and a YELLOW SHIRT(The pink one hadnt come into play at this stage).

B)

I have had a copy of this movie for several years now but I never got around to watching it based on what others had to say about it. I have jsut finished watching it and it really is as bad as a lot of people suggest but there was one scene within the movie that I cant believe the Duke did, this is the scene where he slaps Susan Haywards across the face I was completely taken aback, I never though the Duke would have done that, I have lost a little bit interest in him since seeing this scene. Why on earth did he do this, I realise he is an actor but this is not the John Wayne that I admire as an actor and person, his treatment of Susan Hayward as a whole was shamful splattering out such crap as 'This woman is for my own personal pleasure' it is just so painful to watch. I wouldnt have believed somebody if they had told me John Wayne done this and I am so disappointed to discover this scene, why did Duke not speak out against doing this scene, I just can't understand it.

:agent:

Hi Robbie; I agree that this was probably one of the movies "DUKE" should have passed on but he didn't and now we have it to ponder. He was portraying an Asian Barbarian so I think you had to follow some of the rough treatment that was dished out to woman at that time.And I also think that to be "Politicly Correct" in 1956 wasn't much of an option. I judge the film by how many times it has been on tv. I saw on a late nite movie about 20 years ago and that was just before sattelite tv. I have never seen it since. He has also spanked at least two women that I can remember(McLintock+Donavon's Reef) and I'm sure this would recieve alot of negative reviews now but!!! I take in context with the time it was made. I love the"DUKE",even his stinkers.Who knows,Maybe he was needing some cash flow at the time and "THE CONQUEROR" was all there was....SaddleTramp....

I believe that JW didn't want to do that film but, he was under contract and was almost forced to do it. Arthur or itdo will probably be able to shed some light on this film better then I can.

Something else to consider. Duke wanted to get away from westerns, and war movies. He wanted to be more diverse, and he found that he should have stayed with the western gerne.

He had some problems with Susan Hayward off stage.

I forgot about the slapping scene, but apparently it didn't bother me as much as it did you, Robbie. I only seen the movie once, maybe twice (probably once). It didn't impress me, either.

As a matter of fact, I rank this movie as my least favorite John Wayne movie.

Robbie, don't let this change your opinion of Duke, he's an actor, and played a character. Sometimes, they do things for effect that might offend people. That's what they do for the film industry, because they are actors. I didn't like seeing Tom Hanks play a homosexual in Philadelphia, but he did it because it was his job. By the way, I don't own Philadelphia or The Conqueror on DVD.

Cheers, Hondo B)

I guess I am one of the few fans who enjoyed The Conqueror. I put off watching it as Robbie did, had it for a long time before giving it a viewing, because I was bored at the time. I went into it expecting to hate it, and was surprised to find myself enjoying it. It was wierd seeing him in that Fu Man Chu and hearing him talk as he did, but I feel he pulled it off. To say he didn't is to limit him as an actor. I also liked his detective films (Brannigan and McQ), as it was a chance to see him in a different acting light. As for him slapping Hayward, I guess it didn't register with me either. It was a part of the character. We must be carefull in putting our heroes too high up on that pedistal. The fall can be a far one. That part may have bothered you, Robbie, but you are too big a fan to let it deminish Duke in your eyes. I admire both John Waynes. His life on screen and his life off it as well. He's not perfect, but he's ours! Dukefan1

Originally posted by dukefan1@Jan 27 2004, 09:42 PM
We must be carefull in putting our heroes too high up on that pedestal. The fall can be a far one. That part may have bothered you, Robbie, but you are too big a fan to let it diminish Duke in your eyes.* I admire both John Waynes.* His life on screen and his life off it as well.* He's not perfect, but he's ours!
dukefan1,

I couldn't have said it any better myself!

Way to go (although The Conqueror is at the bottom of my list, too)!

Chester :newyear:

Hi
The Conqueor and John Wayne's relations with susan Hayward seem to have been the subject of much controversy.

First the film
I think that as a workoholic when it came to making pictures John Wayne if he were alive today, would still be climbing into the saddle.
But I also believe that if he ever contemplated quitting the screen it would have been in the period between 1954 and 1959.

Finishing the Hondo and the High and the Mighty in 1954 he stood firmly as Box Office Number 1. He then embarked on a series of nine pictures which with the exception of The Searchers, which I will also admit to everyone's horror was not one of my favourite Duke films, but my opinion notwithstanding stood out like a beacon, of films that were not well received by the critics and severely knocked not only John Wayne's reputation but also dented the actors confidence.

The Sea Chase was a reasonable picture but nothing special, Blood Alley featuring a man who talks to himself throughout the picture and has a fantasy friend called baby could be classed as a strange film for Duke to do. Jet Pilot can't be classed in the sequence as it had been made in 1947 and Howard Hughes had spent years tinkering with it. But many claim that the film is slightly worse than The Conqueror or at least on a level par.

I Married A Woman a simple cameo role, and The Barbarian and the Geisha an infamous picture hated by both star and subsequently director.

As I have said in a previous post he wasn't forced to make The Conqueror. The picture wasn't written for him but he accepted it without hesitation. It is said that the film was written as a western set in Mongolia and it wasn't until he read the script on the night before shooting began that he realised what he had let himself in for.

With regard to Susan Hayward. It is established by every author on John Wayne that during the film she had a serious crush on him and even threatened to fight his wife with winner take all. Hayward had at best a fiery temperment which made it difficult to work with her. She was also not adverse to handing it out when necessary.

To slightly stray from the point When Errol Flynn was making Elizabeth and Essex with Betty Davis the picture called for Davis to slap Errol Flynn. At the time Flynn was suffering from an ear complaint that if hit too hard could have killed him. The scene called for a number of takes and Davis didn't hold back to the point where Flynn called enough a said if she hits me like that again I'll slug her, or words to that effect.

But to get back to the point. In a fist fight it is possible to fake it and make it realistic, John Wayne and Yakima Canutt proved this throughout the thirties and made a routine for everyone to follow.

But a slap is different even today with even more realism required the slap is done with full force or it dosen't look right. The film called for Temujin to humiliate Hayward as a Barbarian would by force , not as Petruchio did to Kathrine in Kiss Me Kate by guile and cunning.

But when it comes down to it in the end it is acting. I was brought up where the man gets shot falls to the floor and although his dead you don't see any blood. after a rousing fist fight where the hero gives the villain a good pasting there's no bruising on either man. We have already said that this ended with the Cowboys but it is only acting and your still the man you were at night going home from the set, as you were in the morning coming to work.


Regards

Arthur

Originally posted by Robbie@Jan 27 2004, 06:22 PM
I have had a copy of this movie for several years now but I never got around to watching it based on what others had to say about it. I have jsut finished watching it and it really is as bad as a lot of people suggest but there was one scene within the movie that I cant believe the Duke did, this is the scene where he slaps Susan Haywards across the face I was completely taken aback, I never though the Duke would have done that, I have lost a little bit interest in him since seeing this scene. Why on earth did he do this, I realise he is an actor but this is not the John Wayne that I admire as an actor and person, his treatment of Susan Hayward as a whole was shamful splattering out such crap as 'This woman is for my own personal pleasure' it is just so painful to watch. I wouldnt have believed somebody if they had told me John Wayne done this and I am so disappointed to discover this scene, why did Duke not speak out against doing this scene, I just can't understand it.

:agent:
It's a movie, not real life. In fact if you read about Duke's and Chata's fights, you'll probably hate him. They had some lulu's.

For what it's worth (which is perhaps not much), here is my not-so-short opinion about this. People do horrible and nasty things when they're acting. They also do them when they're not. Sometimes you have to separate what you like about a person and their on-screen persona from what you know to be true about their personal life - to take what you can get from them. I've done that with Frank Sinatra, whose music I adore despite the fact that by most accounts he was not always the nicest guy to be around.

Another example: I know he's a LOT different from Duke, but arguably my favorite movie star of all time is the great dancer/choreographer/director Gene Kelly. I used to have the most tremendous crush on him and absorbed every piece of him I could get my hands on - movies, books, music, etc. Eventually I got around to reading a book his first wife wrote about him and I almost immediately became disenchanted to learn some of the more unsavory things about him. He wasn't a bad guy, by any means, just not everything I thought he was.

It's no coincidence that I haven't gone out of my way to read books about Duke. I like him the way he exists in my head. I guess the bottom line is that you have to remember that Duke was just another mortal with ugly traits just like you, me, or anyone else you know. He made lots of mistakes. He did bad things. That doesn't mean we can't appreciate him for what he's given us: a lot of outstanding performances in unforgettable films.

I hope we've made you feel a little bit better!

I guess that's just the same as hating Bruce Dern for "shooting" Wayne.

Examples?
Bogie certainly has his share of slapping women around, I won't even begin to count.
Steve McQueen acts violently against Ali MacCraw in "The Getaway", slapping her several times. Later in the film he knocks a screaming woman out.
Kirk Douglas hits Jo Van Fleet in "Gunfight at the OK Corral" (and, according to Douglas' biography, was asked to do that even before the cameras were running, for a "warm up" for Van Fleet, so she could step into character).
Burt Lancaster knocks out Claudia Cardinale cold in "The Professionals" - then using her as a shield.
Cary Grant slaps Leslie Caron in "Father Goose".
Tyrone Power knocks out Maureen O'Hara cold in "The Black Swan".
Clint beats and consequently rapes a woman in "High Planes Drifter".
and James Cagney - he was a ruffian with the ladies, hitting them, beating them, remember the grapefruit? - and the AFI, when honoring Cagney, SELECTED those scenes to show Cagney's great acting!!! (it got a great laugh from the audience)

The list goes on and on.
And Wayne kept slapping on: He slaps Lauren Bacall in "Blood Alley". He slaps the girl in anger in "Shepherd of the Hills".

All that proves is: those guys were good actors, and they knew how to handle their screen persona. After "Conqueror", Wayne went to Germany and got some kind of an award for "being the toughest he-man in Hollywood".

Thanks everyone for giving me your point of view on this issue I would like to make a few additional comments.

Saddle Tramp - Yes you are correct Duke spaked Maureen in Mclintock and another lady in Donovans Reef but in them two movies it was done in a harmless and comic way it was not a slap to indicate unhappiness at something they had said.

Araner - Yes it is a movie and not real life but John Wayne once claimed he played John Wayne in every role regardless of the character does that mean that John Wayne violently slaps females in real life if they say something he doesnt like.

Roland - Im shocked to learn that this abuse of females by Duke continues and I may try to avoid them two movies you mentioned.


For me its like in The Quiet Man Duke handled the whole situation with Maureen so well but what would you all think if she had said to Duke dont touch me you have no right and Duke slapped her across the face in an act of violence.

In the UK there was a soap on called 'EastEnders' and a character called Phil Mitchell slaped Sharon in the pub it went down badly both in the soap and in real life with people, up until that point Phil was the tough guy, but not after he slapped a lady.

I watched Rio Lobo yesterday but I didn't get the same enjoyment out of it as I usually do out of Dukes movies I just kept thinking did he really slap that woman in the conqueror he couldnt have not this big guy.

Duke critisied Cooper for High Noon it does seem a little pathetic to me now when I realise what Duke has been getting up to.

:agent:

One last thing;....As far as the Duke goes in his violence with woman in some of his movies it just doesn't bother me. Compared to the garbage that is on our tv's and in our movie theaters now , watching any "DUKE" film is a breath of fresh air.Even his stinkers I watch over and over because I am a fan that will not quit. Some body could tell me that the "DUKE" was gay and it wouldn't change my opinion one "iota". I have seen the bio's on his life and some of the personal stuff is a bit shocking,but being the HUGE STAR he was there is always someone ready and willing to shovel dirt or horse apples.In my unwavering opinion you either love the man for what he was(the biggest ,universally know hero born in the 20th century)or find someone else who can shine a little brighter. His movies and his name is know world wide. There isn't a continent on the planet that hasn't heard of the man. Almost every day on tv there is a reference to a JW stunt,attitude,frame of mind or any other action of similar bravado.Ever pull a John Wayne stunt? Maybe we will see his name in Websters Dictionary some day,under it it may say,to do a brave deed,stunt,act in defense of others or just won,t take crap from anyone. Will my enthusiasm fade for the greatest Hero the world has ever known because of something he did on screen that I didn't like or that someone else didn't like! ....THAT'LE BE THE DAY....SaddleTramp....

One More Last Thing; I appologise Robbie if I seem like I am getting on your case about "JW" and this slapping thing but "Hey", you are poking my hero in the eye. I still think this sight is the greatest and so are the people who use it....SaddleTramp...

Hey Saddletramp

Dukes my hero to thats why I was concerned with him slapping females around but maybe I was a little too hard on him, he is still the greatest and he didnt do it too often and I suppose in the conqueror it wasnt too extreme.


:agent:

Just watched The Conqueror on AMC, and I thought it was a better movie than I was led to believe. No, it wouldn't make my top ten list but it was still entertaining, and most would have to admit that it is a better movie than most of the stuff coming out today. I always enjoyed Pedro Armendariz in Fort Apache and The Three Godfathers and it was a treat to see him in one more movie with Duke.

Nathan,

I will not argue with you that this movie is better than most of today's movies. I think the issue is that we (the message board in general) like other John Wayne movies better than The Conqueror. I will admit that I haven't seen this movie in quiet some time, and I am due to watch it again. I do have it on VHS, and probably seen that movie once, at the most twice.

This movie was not a movie we are accustom to seeing Duke in and I prefer to see him in a war or western. But I will be fair and see this again, and give you my opinion of the movie soon.

Thanks for you view; you've open my eyes.

Cheers, Hondo B)

I tried to watch it today and couldn't hardly do it. It's not good, at least to me. Too out of character for almost everyone in it.

Hi Arner

Try to imagine instead of Mongolia, Monument Valley and instead of a 12th Century mongol put in a 19th century cavalryman or cowboy.
That was what the Conqueror was written as a 12th century western.
I think that that is what John Wayne thought he was playing. It was not until the eve of starting the film when he read the stilted english and sentences like

"You are bewtofool in your wrath" that he realised what he had let himself in for and by then it was too late to get out.

Incidentally Howard Hughes thought it was wonderful.

It is not that bad a picture but it came at a time when he was struggling with Jet Pilot, Legend of the Lost and Blood Alley and if you examine each of these films individually although the wern't massive they are not bad but put together as a whole in a run it made for one of his leanest spell in films.

Regards


Arthur

P.S A Happy Easter to you all

Arthur,

First of all Happy Easter to you! http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_3_35.gif

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_3_38.gif

Are you kidding about Duke doing this just before the release of The Conqueror? Never heard that before. http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_3_21.gif

Cheers, Hondo B)

I have yet to see the Conqueror, although I am sure I will someday. Its hard to believe that Wayne had some real ho-hum films about the time of The Conquerer, except that his Greatest of all, The Searchers, was right in the middle of them. Go figure.

GSP

GSP,

Duke seem to be going in a different direction with his acting. When he did The Searchers, I believe that Duke wanted expand his acting, and did different types of movies playing characters that was not a part of what Duke played. He soon found out that he made some flops, and went back to where he did play his best roles. I can only imagine that Duke wanted to expand himself so he could find out what kind of actor he was.

Bogart couldn't play western cowboys. Cagney couldn't play romance. Actors played roles that best suit them, so Duke could only play the parts that made him into a legend. I'm glad he found out before it was too late.

Cheers, Hondo B)

Hi Hondo,

Yes I think you are probably right.

With regard to the Conqueror if you read John Wayne American page 411 it tells the story.

Allan Eayles in his the films of John Wayne gives a slightly different viewpoint arguing that Wayne was not an idiot and could therfore handle the lines with ease.

But if you study The Conqueror even with the dialogue toned down, as it was, the lines would be hard going for anyone other than a classical actor.

However as the book states that although the critics hated it comparing Wayne's performance as a cross between a square shooting sheriff and a Mongolian idiot (hence the remarks from Allan Eayles) the film was enormously popular at the box office and made $12 m which I think in 1956 would be quite a large sum of money.


Regards

Arthur

Hello All, I feel that the distraction, the dialogue introduces, is reduced by watching this film several times over the span of a few years. As Arthur Arnell indicated, the book JW American details the events leading to JW doing this part. It is mentioned that Duke asked for the role after reading a script summary. It says that JW did not read the full script until the night before shooting began. Once he read the entire script JW phoned Oscar Millard and told him " You gotta do somethin' about these *^#*^#*^# lines. I can't read em". Oscar Millard wrote the screenplay thinking Marlon Brando would deliver the lines. Millard protested that it was to late. "I'd have to rewrite the entire script for you. Why didn't you speak up sooner?" Dick Powell the producer/Director was approached by Millard before this happened. When Millard expressed concern about Duke doing lines he created for Brando Powell lied and said that JW had agreed to working with a voice coach. There is more detail in the book ( pages 410 & 411) but that seems to explain why the movie suffers in the dialogue. With a different, less flowery script I think it would appeal more to some if not all viewers. At the risk of displaying a bias I would say there are some great scenes with horses. Kilo

I own this on DVD, in widescreen and 6-track stereo. It's the only way to appreciate the glamor and scope of the picture. In my opinion, it's a very enjoyable way to spend 2 hours, and the soldiers-on-horses battle at the end is something to behold (but again, you need to see it widescreen to view the whole clash).