Does anyone else on this Message Board with a Particular interest in Robbies view agree with me that the dukes movies could be offensive to a modern day female audience. For example lets take the masterpiece which is the (The Quiet Man - 1952) , Maureen O'Hara as Mary Kate gave a great performance, and as an individual was every bit as convincing an actor as John Wayne was. Now as much as we John Wayne fans like to dress things up Mary Kates character was sickeningly stereotypical of women in western Ireland in the early 1900s. John waynes Character did abuse Mary kate in a not so much violent manner but a very male dominant physical role, a form of abuse without any question no matter how one trys to camouflage or paint up the scenario. Does anyone believe that this type of film could be made nowadays in the current climate where even james bond cant be sarcastically dominant over his female counterparts nevermind physically dominant. Im not trying to be offensive or sarcastic to anyone on this messageboard, but merely interested in others views. ;)

Hi Shootster

First of all the Quiet man is set in Southern Ireland a place where women in the 1920s and to this very day are loyal and obedient to their husbands so what would have been the point in making a movie that would be both historically and contemperally inaccurate.

Secondly the a Quiet man is a comedy and should be regarderd in this light.

Johns movies are mainly about the old wes and the men and WOMEN who helped tame in my view they are neither racist or sexist.

Mark Kate in the Quiet Man is her own woman who loves her husband and is ultimately loyal to him I do not think that this is a bad sterotype to be.

You mentioned how James Bond has changed to address sexist issues however the new James Bond movie was not well received and because bond had lost some of his most appealing characteristics and a lot of people have perdicted that it could be on its way out.

Finally I know a lot of strong single minded liberal females from a wide age group who love John Wayne and his movies includding the Quiet man so in light of the evidence your views are very insubstantiated.

I hope I havent offended anyones views

cyas

B)

I've always thought that Wayne's characters treated women much better than other actors of his era. The Ringo Kid showed great respect for the prostitute Dallas.

I don't think Sean is abusive to Mary Kate. Most men would not tolerate a woman not sleeping with them. But Robbie is right it is a comedy and should be regarded as such.

Thank you Robbie for your Opinions, however you have made a few inaccurate statements which need to be addressed promptly. First of all as John Wayne Fans we all Know that the quiet man was filmed and set in the Free State of Ireland, im not completely sure if the occupied six counties where in possesion of the United Kingdom at the time in which this film was set but that is irrelevant. My point was the film was set in western ireland I.E Connaught. Southern ireland is some what of a misleading term because the most Northernly point in Ireland is in Donegal which is in Southern Ireland. Perhaps Wives where loyal to there husbands but Mary Kate wasnt married to Sean Thornton when I felt he was being sexist towards her, and anyway being married to someone in the 1920s doesnt mean you have the right to be sexist towards them whether its in Western Ireland or anywhere else. I would strongly disagree that women in the west of Ireland are loyal to their husbands in the sense that they darn there socks and have the dinner on the table for them nowadays. Things have moved on a long way in Ireland from those days thankfully.

The Bond Movies where a compare and contrast scenario regarding Feminist issues, I care not too discuss the film itself.

Getting back to the point which was raised are dukes movies offensive to a female audience, there is undoubtely questions that have been raised and i hope they will be further raised throughout this topic.

Finally I know alot of feminist groups who wouldnt support such films as the quiet man and many other western movies where women are treated as second class citizens.

I wish not to be offensive on this Message board but merely raise controversial issues related to the dukes films. Which I hope everyone can debate on legitamately. :ph34r:

Hi Shootister

I just had to get back to your last thread as it is very controversial indeed. You referred to Northern Ireland as the occupied six counties, what do you mean by occupied are you referring to the British and are you yourself from Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland. You are right that Southern is a misleading term to use but Donegal is not part of Northern Ireland so it is therefore in Southern Ireland. i dont know if women in Ireland darn mens sock anyomore but I am 110% sure that the vast majority of them have their husbands dinner on the table for him each evening. I dont know how Sean was sexist, the Quiet Man is an old fashioned romantic comedy and sexism did exist everywhere in the 1920's so the film is meerly being histroically correct.

Here is my defence of the Quiet Man

1. He dragged her across the fields at the end, this was because she considerd him a coward and tried to run away from him.

2. He realised she fancied him, he felt the same so he kissed her when he found her cleanning his cottage, this is not only a terriffic scene but one that is understandble as well.

Actually now that I think of it the woman is pretty powerful bacause she make John abbandon his principles and ask Mary Kates brother for the money she is owed. She also makes Sean fight her brother for her love.

Now onto the Bond movies they have become a disaster since political correctness was introduced.

In Sands of Iwo Jima John Wayne not only refuses to score with a prostitute but ends up leaving her his pay check.
In Mclintock he tells his daughter about the bravery of his wife durring an indian attack.
In Eldorado Johns life is saved by a woman who shoots a would be killer he is also shot by the same woman.
A woman at the end of the Comancheroes fights of oncomming comancheroes pretty sucessfully.
As a matter of fact the script to a number of Johns famous westerns ie El Dorado and The War Wagon was written by a female.

There are countless more examples I could give you but in conclusion John movies are neither sexist nor racist. They are fun, authentic, somtimes classic and multilayered and deep and always enjoyable except legend of the lost and a few of them movies.

Although I havent agreed with any of yuor views YET shootister you are a welcome addition and an extra sparkle to this messageboard and I look foward to future conflicts with you

Dear Robbie

I made the point about the occupied Six Counties because i was unsure of when the quietman was set, this would have a significance on whether or not it was set in Southern Ireland or Northern Ireland as Ireland was undivided a 100 years ago. Quite rightly Donegal is not part of Northern Ireland however i was making the point to conflict with what you said which was that the film was set in Southern Ireland which it wasnt it was set in Western Ireland in Connaught. Southern Ireland is Known as Munster. Southern I said was a misleading term because Donegal could be classed as being in the south while on the otherhand its the most northernly point in Ireland.

I think your 110 confidence in western ireland 30 - 40 year old women having the dinner on the table for their husbands is a tad ambitious. With the success of the celtic tiger in recent years The west of ireland has become pretty cosmopoliton with a housing boom and a growth in the IT Industry especially in the cities of Galway and the town of Mayo this has filtered out through the rest of connaught, where women live fast technophile lives and share in the responsibility of family life. Once again i stress the days of cooking and cleaning and housewiving has long gone from the west of Ireland, its an ever changing fast climate. Attitudes like this can lead to sexism,

Regardless of what mary kate thought of Sean Thornton he had no right to drag her acrosss the fields, this is a very male dominant action and wouldnt wash nowadays and shouldnt have washed in ye olde times either.

John Wayne I believe had three wives, im not sure if he had heard of Feminist views in his era, or if any of the wives he had shared any views.

Once again the James bond movies where a compare and contrast feminist issue, you may have misinterpreted the meaning of my point, i dont care to dwell on it though.

Moving on swiftly yes there may be instances where John waynes characters show women some remorse or give them some male concession, whereas those characters had no right to show romantic remorse or give male concessions it wasnt theres to give. If he was in contact with a prostitute why insult the woman by leaving her money if he refuses to score with her, why not try to help the woman, as the same way men should expect women to help Male Prostitutes which existed rampantly in the era's john made his movies in.

Why shouldnt women be able to fight at the end of a film successfully you raise the issue of women being able to be as good or like men but why do you feel the need too, is it because this wasnt always the case in all of John Wayne Movies, or is it beacause you want to make me believe that women where equal to men in the era that john made his films about or indeed the era of the 50's 60's etc in hollywood where john wayne made his films, im sorry but this is not the case robbie.

John Waynes films are fun authentic and multilayered for some people, but for others they can be racist and sexist.

I find your opinions interesting but one dimensional, theres an unwillingless to admit wrong doing. As I do not agree with any of the opinions that you have suggested nor the factual mistakes which I have corrected you on, I value your opinion and look forward to debating with you in the future.

I don't find Duke's movies offensive. Women and men have different roles in life, and sometimes it seems like people forget that and go a little heavy on the political correctness. I look at his movies as signs of the times, both the time when they were made and the time which they depict. Women having the choice to become whatever they want and having valued opinions is great, but I don't look at what life was like 100 years ago, or how it is depicted in the movies, and think it would be awful to live like that.

I would say that there is sexism and racism in Duke movies. It is probably nearly unavoidable because those things are in the eyes of the beholder, and there is always someone out there that feels hurt about something. That doesn't make it right, but I guess I am saying that I don't see Duke's movies as a sore spot. Sean dragging Mary Kate across the fields doesn't offend me. She does not appear to be a helpless, abused wife. There are several times that she stands up for herself and even fights back. I don't think Mary Kate is a weak or undesirable portrayal of a woman. As for women in other Duke movies, I can't think of any characters that I look at with pity because of any sexist treatment. If anything, I envy them for having someone like John Wayne around.

I take the good along with the bad, but in my opinion there are more good things than bad things in Duke's movies.

Does anyone else on this Message Board with a Particular interest in Robbies view agree with me that the dukes movies could be offensive to a modern day female audience.

In a word - no.

Vicki ;)

hi shootister,

no i don't find the dukes movies offensive to the females who watch them being that i am female.

firstly you have to realise that when these movies were made there was no female lib org. running, most of how the women where shown was how their lives were at the times of the settings of the films.

secondly all of the women parts were filled by strong characters and showed that they (pardon the pun) had balls and were strong enough to survive the places and times which were not kind to the women.

maybe if you were to try to live like these so called down trodden women had lived you would be glad to live the life you now lead.

hope i didn't offend you

cheers smokey

I think Ive gave adequate opinions and views on this issue, and nobody can deny that dukes films can be offensive to women. I dont agree with your view at all smokey I found it wandering of the garden path if you like. Perhaps you could strengthen your opinion by addressing the issue I raised, Imust say liberty v's point was interesting to say the LEAST.

Thanks Folks

Yo Shootister your comments are so inaccurate and slightly extremist that I simply had to reply to them.

First of all Northern Ireland was set up in 1920 and the Quiet Man was set in the 1920's. The remaining part of Ireland was then known as either southern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland. Here is a quote to end this argument

1920 The Government of Ireland Act partitions Ireland into Northern
Ireland and Southern Ireland.

If you think I made up this quote check out this link. http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/educ/eductime.htm

So this is one of your arguments about the Quiet Man not being set in Southern Ireland smashed into smithereens.

Shootister you also refer to Northern Ireland as the occupied 6 counties this is a very derogatory, racist, politically incorrect (something which you seem to be against) and above all ignorant and insulting comment made against the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland something which I feel you should retract.

Right back to business Shootister do you watch any movies outside of John Wayne’s because if you don’t you may be stunned at some of the things you will see. I simply cant believe that one of the most loveable innocent movies which people from all ages and GENDERS and tastes can enjoy is being slated because of political correctness gone mad.

Regarding the scene where Mary Kate is dragged at the end if you watch the movie she refuses to sleep with the Duke considers him a coward and then runs away from him I think his response was reasoned and logical. Secondly Duke dragging Mary across the country was spontaneously set up my John and MAUREEN OHARA of screen and Maureen made several key suggestions which were implemented and she is not a lady to be walked over by Anyone. Shootister you also have to realise that having a diplomatic conversation over ice tea at the train station is not going to make for a great cinematic experience but what Duke did does and it is proven by the fact that we are still talking about it today. I am still bewildered that you find Johns movies sexist where’s the proof or is it simply something which you have heard someone else say.

John Wayne certainly had heard of feminist views in his era and even mentioned it in one of his movies (McQ) his second wife used to act violently towards him but the sexist Duke never once raised his hand to her do you think he should have treated her as an equal?

Your arguement against John Wayne not scoring with the prostitute is laughable he left her his pay check and helped her maintain her dignity he even went with an ex prostitute in Stagecoach and treated her like a lady(as a woman should be treated) what more can the man do. Women in Johns earliest movies right through to his last match their male counterparts in every way. But male or female nobody could match John

I am curious Shootister are you a female?????

I think Shootister I have shot this arguement dead but if you feel you want to reply please do I would be very interested in your response but I think you know I have won.

Cya

P.s. Shootister you know it and I know it Johns movies are not racist even the most easily offended non-white person couldn't put up an argument against that statement.

I have to agree with Robbie's last post. The scene from Sands of Iwo Jima is endearing. Shootister, you said that he should have done something to help the prostitute out. He did. He gave all his money to her because she had a baby. Have you seen that scene in the movie? Your comment made me wonder if you had because I didn't take his actions at all in a sexist or derogatory light to women. Yes, I do think that there are several scenes in the Duke's movies over the years that could be considered sexist or offensive to women. I think that a majority of movies that are still made today contain scenes that are offensive and sexist towards women. I don't believe that the Duke's movies were any worse than those of today. To the contrary, I believe that a majority of his movies portray the role of a woman positively. As far as the scene in the Quiet Man, no that probably wouldn't pass if it was set in the USA today, but it's not. It's set in a different era completely, and I think that the context should be considered.

Since Willam of Orange.......(600 years ago ?) Ireland has had a problem.
We AIN"T gonna settle it HERE.
" Any Questions "


Rick

shootister,

i feel that i answered your question with my own point of view. a question for you DO you like to be treated like a lady? this is how all of the women were in dukes movies they are no different to most of our classics.

you seem to be wanting to make an argument for ireland, this is not the place for political views as we all have our own ideas.


cheers smokey

I myself feel that some women today need to be put back into line. I myself would much rather have a man man that wouldn't take any mouthing from me and would not go hide in a corner somewhere. I to be truthful am so sick and tired of the feminist uprising. I think that most of our problems in the country today stem from the feminist movement. Our children now go to daycare before and after school. The parents are so hung up on having all of the material things in life that the children take a back seat. Kids starting out today think they need a new home, new car, new furniture new everything and then when it comes time to have a family both parents have to work in order to keep all of this. The prioritites today are backward. I'm sorry but God put women on this earth to be mans helper. This doesn't mean that women are nothing. Most women are the back bone of a family. I have been at home raising my own family and I wouldn't have changed that for anything. Before ya know they are grown and on their way.
My family is my career and I know some women are offended by that but, this is how I look at the situation and at life. Our lives are what we make of them.
Little Duke

Good morning, folks!

MRS. Chester here . . .

First of all, I am a big John Wayne fan, and I am not offended by his movies. However, I am not appreciative of the scenes with JW (or Patrick Wayne, either) spanking women. I know it is meant to be funny, but I just don't find it that funny. That's just my opinion, doesn't make me (or anybody else) right or wrong, just different view points. The world would be a boring place if we all thought exactly the same. Even my own husband Chester doesn't have a problem with the spanking parts - he thinks they're all in good fun :P .

Yee ha, Little Duke - RIGHT ON!! :D You go, girl! I am a stay-at-home, home teaching mom, and I agree wholeheartedly with your remarks. I won't expound any further here, as that would be off topic, but I appreciate what you have to say.

:rolleyes:

Ok Folks I feel Im going to have to defend myself against the Ten Real John Wayne fans this Website contains. There has been a number of vicious swipes directed towards me the shootist. Firstly the Issue Of Ireland and the quiet man, I am not trying to make a political point on this website anyone who read what i said could have gaged that for themselves I merely corrected Robbie on where he said the quiet man was filmed he said it was filmed in Southern Ireland Which is certainly was not it was filmed in WESTERN Ireland. Its not a big country so it shouldnt be a problem.

The occupied Six Counties is not a derogatory comment at all. It means that an island surrounded by water is sub-divided and occupied by a foreign army. My argument about the quiet man being set in Southern Ireland being smashed in smithereens is total chaos, firstly i did not say the quiet man was set in southern Ireland, I said it was set in the Free state and it was set in Western Ireland which im right about in both cases. Now when someone on a messageboard has the audacity to tell you that they have won in a bebate on a message board i find that quite condescending to say the least. I wont be frightened or intimadated of this messageboard by crude swipes.

I feel none of my points are laughable on this topic as was suggested towards me. Get real everyone these films we love to watch so much are riddled with sexism towards women and its all very well getting your wife or your girlfriend to give their opinion on this website how do I or anyone else know its not just a male john wayne fan saying its there wife or girlfriend when its not. Im sure John Wayne wouldnt have asked any of his Three Wives to do something for him using his own name come now.

My standpoint remains the same John Waynes films I believe are sexist towards women and i could get countless numbers of males and females to agree with me except the point and lets try to be grown up about this. Its not a stab at john wayne or some cheap swipe its gods hones truth some of john waynes films are sexist towards women it was the era and it was the way things happened in hollywood, but it still doesnt make it right.

I found Reasr 's contribution to this topic quite downbeat what exactly are you trying to say or is there any substance to it, Please enlighten me with your view. And Smokey I think you have read my Opinions wrong i merely corrected another member on positioning of the Quiet man in the Free State Of Ireland, I think you need to look through the posts again.

Sorry folks for being controversial I did not wish to be but I wont be accused in the wrong or misquoted thanks folks.

What Iwas trying to say was
You have a good tread going...... lets end the political debate.
If anything it causes turmoil and its the path we are headed down.
Both of you now feel an apoligy is in order.

Please resolve your matters thru email or private message and not on the board.

Again you have started an interesting tread, others may wish to contribute to it .

Please lets stay within the scope of the topic

"Are Dukes Movies Offensive to a female Audience"
and leave world politics out.

So to answer that I say NO.
Even taking into consideration of the times, there have always been a strong woman opposite him. They are for the most part independent and don't need him. And tell him so.
He has become the macho man that guys want to be like,which made him a target to the Fem Lib movement.
Most women who have that view have never watched one of his films.

Rick

readsit@toolcity.net

Shootister,

Hi! This is MRS. Chester again. The reason I answered your post is that it would seem appropriate for a member of the FEMALE audience to reply, since your question was "Are Dukes Movies Offensive to a female Audience?" My husband did not ask me to post, I chose to on my own. I didn't feel it necessary to register a separate user name to express that opinion. Hope that's OK with you.

Regarding the "issue" of where in Ireland the movie Quiet Man was filmed, I would say that to most of us, it is a non-issue. It seems only to be an issue for the two of you from the UK, and my personal opinion is that your debate on that particular thing has taken up an inordinate amount of space on a JOHN WAYNE Message Board. That part of your conversation would have been better taken to the Off Topic forum, perhaps to a chat room, or through e-mail.

I don't see why you feel a need to defend yourself. You are entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to mine (and everyone else to theirs). In stating mine, I am not trying to change your mind. You asked a simple question, and made some good points. I simply answered it from my (female) point of view. I don't feel compelled to sway you to my way of thinking, but you seem angry that few of us agree with you. :unsure:

You might very well be right. Perhaps John Wayne's movies are sexist. I am still not offended by them (I find the amount of smoking that goes on far more disturbing).

If the John Wayne fans on this message board are not to your liking, perhaps you should find one where they are.

Respectfully,

Mrs. Chester

I will agree with both reasr and chester that the Quiet mans film setting in Ireland has taken up much of the topic, however If you go back to my first thread and the start of the topic my topic did not start out with that intention I was questioned about where the quiet man was set and defended my point, no political advertising was meant. Mrs Chester I was not intrepreting you as an assilant of someone who gets their wife to write on this messageboard but merely making a general comment that that type of thing could happen. But I take onboard wht you have said and Appreciate that females will can and do enjoy John Wayne Movies and dont think their sexist. I do understand that this is the case i accept it 100 percent but there is an unwillingless and ive mentioned it on this board before by members to hear anything bad of John Wayne or his movies. I would like to hear more females opinions on this board pro John wayne Movies.

Hello Shootister I feel I have a responsibility to give you a serious reeducation. First of all you complain about people on the messageboard all being male and pretending to be female. That I feel is a rather strange comment coming from a person who doesn’t state their gender and uses a false name “Shootister”, I also am simply giving a male perspective as I am male. I am also pleasantly surprised at the number of female John Wayne fans participating on this messageboard. Now I would ask you to retract your horrible, derogatory, politically incorrect, offence, sectarian comment regarding Northern Ireland calling it the “occupied six counties” it is called Northern Ireland and I would ask you to call it this as I find your attitude by calling it the 6 counties aggressive and disrespectful. The province of Northern Ireland does not have a foreign army on it, it has its own army the British army made up of native occupants from Northern Ireland, Wales, Scotland and England. I stated that the Quiet Man was set in Southern Ireland and I still do, people in Southern Ireland(or the free state) have stated that it is set in Southern Ireland, John Ford stated that he set the Quiet Man in cong Southern Ireland so where’s the problem, you have to remember there are two parts to Ireland, Northern and southern just like Korea and even America.
Now Shootister give me some examples of sexism that you have seen in Mr. Wayne’s movies I have asked this before, please state specific scenes. Nowadays movies show women getting violently thumped raped and being treated as sex objects by their male counterparts I have never seen this is Johns movies. Have you seen the poor way they are treated in such films as Cruel Intensity, American Pie, all of Clint Eastwoods movies etc they are treated as equals in Johns movies(as they should be treated) and this I find refreshing.
Your right about one thing thought Miss Shootister, I also felt that Reasrs comments were downbeat and rather incoherent with the vast flowing conversation. I have no problem discussing all types topics on this board including politics(as John himself wasn’t adverse to talking about it) as long as we are mature and not offensive towards anyone else. Also I do agree with Reasr on the fact that a lot of people and Im not saying you dislike John’s movies and call them sexist/racist without having seen them.
I repeat my earlier statement that John’s movies are not racist/sexist. I still hope I haven’t offended you or anyone else and I still think you are a welcome and refreshing addition to this messageboard and I hope you don’t decide to leave.
Oh yea to everyone who reads the threads to this topic take a look at some of the others I have posted a few which seem to have been overlooked via the hysteria of this one.

Cya

P.s. Where is Big Jake these days?

B)

I dont need re-educating lets make that quite clear, I wouldnt have thought that Female john wayne fans have invaded this messageboard either, there are some though ill acknowledge that. My name shouldnt really be an issue neither should the term "occupied Six Counties" I shan't be retracting that statement neither as i feel its a legitamate phrase. My attitude is far from aggressive and disrespectful If you feel this way it is your own paranoia. Some people in Northern ireland may find the british army disrespectful and aggressive but lets get away from those issues and get back to "ARE DUKES MOVIES OFFENSIVE TO A FEMALE AUDIENCE"

As it has sparked quite a good debate Lets go deeper into the issue here, yes there are films being made today about women being abused but those films are addressing the issues tackling them head on. Males arent being portrayed in the same light in movies today and neither or women, what im suggesting is that males where being portrayed as superior beings in alot of dukes movies to that of women.

Women where seen by men that time as sex objects, which is sickening. sex is perfectly fine dont get me wrong i have no issues with that and i dont want any sarcastic comments either :D Women werent seen as people who could give a reasonable suggestion as to how to get the bad guy or fight the indians. They where mostly told you stay at home. This is a quote from a website which gives a feminist viewpoint about John Wayne. "The John Wayne image of manhood is prevalent. Please recall how when a woman resisted Gable or Wayne’s attempts to embrace her, she was grabbed and thrown over backwards and forced to be kissed. But of course she always surrendered and ultimately enjoyed this “persuasion. http://pub12.ezboard.com/fpoliticalpalacefrm5.showMessage?topicID=18.topic Copy and paste the website link into your url.

The Searchers does deal with Racism and sexism Issues but isnt ironic that Martha Edwards would fancy Ethan Edwards his brothers wife and his sister in law. Once again we have the War hero return no commitments ties fears, but there's a lady somewhere waiting on his every move his return if you like. Its also typical that ethan may have loved martha prior to the films story line but didnt want to become committed or domesticated. It was ok for the woman to do this but not for a man like ethan edwards.
Keep them coming folks cheers. :P