This thread is for comments and questions regarding the Duke's filmography, a topic which has been pinned for your convenience, but closed so that comments can be separate. Changes to the filmography can be made (by moderators), after consultation with some of our "resident experts" :rolleyes: . It is our desire that the information be as factual and accurate as possible, and with all your help, we are sure that will be the case.

A suggestion by ethanedwards was to make information previously posted regarding "missing" films more readily available, which we hope to do (trying to figure out the best way to do that :rolleyes: ). We are considering moving pertinent posts into this thread.

Any ideas and suggestions are welcome.

Chester :newyear:

Hi Chester,
First of all thanks for doing that.
I posted my list on the 'What are we going to do now' thread.
Is it possible to drag my list across to this one.
It is similar to popul vuh's list,
but includes about four extra films,
that Arthur and I mentioned.
My list ,only concerns itself with, pre-BIG TRAIL.
However, although Populs list is concise,and many thanks for his work,
his running order is not in sequence of release dates and production order.
eg. He shows,some of the Lone Star films, before Duke had finished
his 6 film WB contract.
Some of the Universal releases are mixed up with others, when in fact, he made, them under contract all at the same time.
If one checked which studios, Duke was signed to at the time, most of the films in the early listings, would be significantly shuffled around.
Jet Pilot, was in fact produced in between Sands of Iwo Jima, and Rio Grande,
and to place it by it's release date would be misleading, as it was held up for years.
To watch it after The Searchers, would show a much younger Duke!!
Rooster Cogburn,not Brannigan,was Dukes penultimate film etc etc
Cancel My Reservation, needs to be included.
I feel there is much work to be done,
but clearly we can't all keep printing massive lists!!
The book THE COMPLETE FILMS OF JOHN WAYNE,
as by far the best filmography, showing all the exact release dates,
and I feel that, if these were adhered too, with the exception of Jet Pilot,
popluls list, would be significantly different!
It would probably be more accurate to print the books list,
and for us to add comments to that, at least it
is in release order.
Best wishes,
Keith

Hi.

First of all I want to say that I have not put work into making a list of all the films, nor in the order they were released.

As I have mentioned before I have used this list to work with:

jwayne.com (http://www.jwayne.com/filmography.shtml)

This was the site which from I found this message board in the first place since it links to the forum, and I actually thought that these two sites were connected by the people maintaining them. I have corrected a couple of mistakes, but seen others that I have not corrected. I thought there would be others on this message board that might be sitting with more complete lists.

What I have done is put a lot of time trying to get an overview over which movies are available on DVD in region 2. This is work I have done entirely for my own sake, but since there might be others looking for these movies I thought it was a shame not to make this information available since it is pretty time consuming work unless you speak a whole bunch of different languages. Besides it may be fun to compare what is available in different regions.

Keith: If you have this list available maybe you could share it. I agree that we can't all keep printing massive lists, but if there is to be compiled one list on this message board I think it will involve a bit of work regardless of how you aproach this task. If we have a list start with people can comment on errors as we go along.

Regards
Popol Vuh

Popol Vuh,

I appreciate what you did, and listed the movies for the regions in 1 and 2. We've had many discussions about the movies Duke made, and had many different numbers. There was confusion to appearances counting as movies, and even cameo appearances. We never confirmed an actual number to how many movies Duke made. The list ethanedwards mentioned is different from imbd. And the other sources were different as well. So let me say that I appreciate what you have done, and enjoyed the list.

And ethanedwards, I agree with you on the actual release dates. I happen to have the same book, and find it informative. It might be nice to get the official count from the John Wayne Estate. I bet they know.

Anyway, I'm sure there will be more debate about the number of movies he was in.

Cheers B)

Hi Popul and Chester,
I do have a list, which is an extension of my early film list,
on the 'What are we going to do now thread'
What I did, was to start with THE COMPLETE FILMS OF JOHN WAYNE,
and then cross reference it with about ten other books,
shuffling it around, several times until, they all cross checked.
Things like, where Duke was at the time,
and his preparations for his next film etc, who ,was he contracted to,
all this factors, came into it.
From Stagecoach onwards, it was a bit easier, but even so, Jet Pilot, throws up an anomaly, because of how long it took Howard Hughes, to release it!!However, I considered it should be listed, when he made it.
The more I listed and re-listed the films, it seemed, logical to
put them all in production order, so that when you watched them, it all made more sense.
For example, four Three Mesquiteers films were released
after Stagecoach, where as most biographers seem to think, because of contractual obligations, the whole lot were made pre-Stagecoach, but when you watch them,it makes more sense to see them all together, because, Duke is slightly more mature in Stagecoach, so to watch the Three Mesquiteers after it ,seems odd!
Like you Popul, it has taken many hours to get the list together, and I am constantly fine tuning it, with any snippet of information, that becomes available.
Listing the definitive filmography, is no easy task!!

ethanedwards,

What is the difference between the release date, and production order? Maybe you can tell me what production order is.

Cheers B)

Hi Mike,
I realised, when reading the various biographies,
that Duke would say, after such and such a film, he
was preparing for his next one.
When I cross referenced this against release dates, it didn't tie in.
So it was obvious release dates, were set for the advantage of the film studio.
This would explain, why after the success of Stagecoach, they rushed out the release of another four Mesquiteers films, even though we believe, they were made before.
Other films were delayed in release,so as not to clash with so called blockbusters of the day!!
All sorts of reasons, skewed, the release dates, away from when the films were produced.

Keith,

You have a list of all the movies when production was complete?

Cheers B)

Hi Kieth

Good work. I take your point about release and production dates a good case in point would be Red River which many take as 1948 but was in fact made in 1947 with contractual problems holding up the film's release for over a year.

Regards


Arthur

Keith,

The Mrs. and I were discussing this, and think that we could post two lists in the other thread (the closed one), one list by release date (which is a common way to list films), and by production date (which has its merits as well, as you have pointed out). If you want to share your list (by production date), we can move it to the Filmography thread, so it, too, is readily available.

The list that PV shared (by way of jwayne.com) will need some fine tuning, as some have indicated.

What I'm thinking of doing is going and numbering the films in the list, and maybe we could discuss them and fine tune them in groups of twenty at a time (that seems manageable). BTW, do you own Fred Landesman's book?

Arthur, you do own Fred's book. Is it fairly accurate?

Another thought - we could incorporate into the lists the studio that produced each film.

Well, it's pushing midnight in our time zone, and 5 AM comes around pretty quickly, so we aren't going to do anything else with it tonight.

Good night, all!

Chester :newyear: ( . . . and good night, Mrs. C :angel1: , wherever you are!)

P.S. She's right next to me :D !

Hi everyone,
Mike,
just to answer your question, there is not
an official list, of production dates.
My list is a sum of all the parts.
One can read between the lines in the biographies,
and place what Dukes film schedule,was,at a given time.

Arthur,
Strangely enough, I was going to mention,
Red River,as an example, this morning!
In most filmographys, Red River, is listed after
Tycoon and Fort Apache, but as you said.
it was made before!!

Chester,
I had the same problem, with sleep time catching up,
it was 3:30 am, when I was making those postings,
we must all, be mad!!!
I take your point about Fred's book and the section analysis,
however, as I mentioned to Mike, there are no
exact production dates!
I do have, on my list, all the studios, which
makes it more sensible, when you see that those
early studio releases are mostly grouped together.
In those early days, unlike Dukes later years, he was very rarely 'loaned' out.
So the films, conveniently block, themselves together.
I think listing the films by years, is adequate enough, as long as they, possibly, can be, in a sensible viewing,chronological order.

Best Wishes,
Keith

Hi,
OK, here's some, to get on with,
the early ones, which Duke may or not have been in,
very difficult to pin the year, but it's fun
to include them, even if for curiosity!!

PRODUCTION ORDER

1926. BROWN OF HARVARD - (MGM)
1926. BARDELEYS THE MAGNIFICENT- (MGM)
1927. ANNIE LAURIE- (MGM)
1927. THE DROP KICK - (First National) Uncredited but visibly seen.
1927. THE GREAT K&A TRAIN ROBBERY- (Fox)
1928. MOTHER MACHREE- (Fox)
1928. FOUR SONS- (Fox)
1928. HANGMAN'S HOUSE -(Fox) Uncredited, but visibly seen.
1928. HAM HAMILTONS COMEDIES- (Fox)
1928. NOAH'S ARK- (Warner Brothers/First National)
1929. STRONG BOY- (Fox)
1929. SPEAKEASY- (Fox)
1929. THE BLACK WATCH- (Fox)
1929. WORDS AND MUSIC- (Fox) credited as Duke Morrison
1929. SALUTE- (Fox) credited as Duke Morrison
1929. THE FORWARD PASS- (First National))
1930. THE LONE STAR RANGER- (Fox)
1930. MEN WITHOUT WOMEN-(Fox) credited as Duke Morrison
1930. BORN RECKLESS- (Fox)
1930. ROUGH ROMANCE- (Fox) credited as Duke Morrison
1930. CHEER UP AND SMILE- (Fox) credited as Duke Morrison
1930. THE BIG TRAIL- (Fox) First time credited as John Wayne.
1931. WOMEN OF ALL NATIONS- (Fox)
1931. THE SWEETHEART OF SIGMA CHI- (Fox)
1931. GIRLS DEMAND EXCITEMENT- (Fox)
1931. THREE GIRLS LOST- (Fox)
1931. MEN ARE LIKE THAT- (Columbia)
1931. MAKER OF MEN- (Columbia)
1931. THE DECEIVER- (Columbia)
1931. RANGE FEUD- (Columbia)
1932. TEXAS CYCLONE- (Columbia)
1932. THAT'S MY BOY- (Columbia)
1932. TWO FISTED LAW- (Columbia)
1932. THE SHADOW OF THE EAGLE- (Mascot)
1932. THE HURRICANE EXPRESS- (Mascot)
1932. THE THREE MUSKETEERS- (Mascot)
1932. LADY AND GENT.- (Paramount)
1932. HIS PRIVATE SECRETARY.- (Showmans Pictures)
1932. HAUNTED GOLD.- (WB)
1932. RIDE HIM COWBOY- (WB)
1932. THE BIG STAMPEDE- (WB)
1933. THE TELEGRAPH TRAIL- (WB)
1933. CENTRAL AIRPORT- (WB)
1933. SOMEWHERE IN SONORA- (WB)
1933. THE LIFE OF JIMMY DOLAN- (WB)
1933. BABY FACE- (WB)
1933. THE MAN FROM MONTERY- (WB)
1933. COLLEGE COACH- (WB)
1933. RIDERS OF DESTINY- (Lone Star/Monogram)
1933. SAGEBRUSH TRAIL- (LS/M)
1933. WEST OF THE DIVIDE- (LS/M)
1934.-LUCKY TEXAN- (LS/M)
1934. BLUE STEEL-(LS/M)
1934. THE MAN FROM UTAH- (LS/M)
1934. RANDY RIDES ALONE- (LS/M)
1934. THE STAR PACKER- (LS/M)
1934. THE TRAIL BEYOND- (LS/M)
1934. 'NEATH ARIZONA SKIES-- (LS/M)
1934.-LAWLESS FRONTIER- (LS/M)
1935. TEXAS TERROR- (LS/M)
1935. RAINBOW VALLEY- (LS/M)
1935. THE DESERT TRAIL- (LS/M)
1935. THE DAWN RIDER- (LS/M)
1935. PARADISE CANYON- (LS/M)
1935. WESTWOOD HO!- (Republic) First of new almalgamated company.
1935. NEW FRONTIER- (Republic)
1935. LAWLESS RANGE- (Republic)
1936. THE LAWLESS NINETIES- (Republic)
1936. KING OF THE PECOS- (Republic)
1936. THE OREGON TRAIL- (Republic)
1936. WINDS OF THE WASTELAND- (Republic)
1936. THE LONELY TRAIL- (Republic)
1936. THE SEA SPOILERS- (Universal)
1936. CONFLICT- (Universal)
1937. CALIFORNIA STRAIGHT AHEAD- (Universal)
1937 I COVER THE WAR- (Universal)
1937. IDOL OF THE CROWDS- (Universal)
1937. ADVENTURES END- (Universal)
1937. BORN TO THE WEST(Helltown)- (Paramount)
1938. PALS OF THE SADDLE- (Republic)
1938. OVERLAND STAGE RAIDERS- (Republic)
1938. SANTA FE STAMPEDE- (Republic)
1938. RED RIVER RANGE- (Republic)
1939. THE NIGHT RIDERS- (Republic)
1939. THREE TEXAS STEERS- (Republic)
1939. WYOMING OUTLAW- (Republic)
1939. NEW FRONTIER- (Republic)
1939. STAGECOACH- (Walter Wagner/United Artists)
1939. ALLEGHENY UPRISING- (RKO)
1940. THE DARK COMMAND- (Republic)
1940. THREE FACES WEST- (Republic)
1940. THE LONG VOYAGE HOME- (Walter Wagner/United Artists)
1940. SEVEN SINNERS- (Universal)
1941. THE SHEPHERD OF THE HILLS- (Paramount)
1941. A MAN BETRAYED- (Republic)
1941. LADY FROM LOUISIANNA- (Republic)
1941. LADY FOR A NIGHT- (Republic)
1942. REAP THE WILD WIND- (Paramount)
1942. THE SPOILERS- (Universal)
1942. IN OLD CALIFORNIA- (Republic)
1942. FLYING TIGERS- (Republic)
1942. REUNION IN FRANCE- (MGM)
1942. PITTSBURGH- (Universal)
1943. A LADY TAKES A CHANCE- (RKO)
1943. IN OLD OKLAHOMA(War of the Wildcats)- (Republic)
1944. THE FIGHTING SEEBEES- (Republic)
1944. TALL IN THE SADDLE- (RKO)
1945. FLAME OF THE BARBARY COAST- (Republic)
1945. BACK TO BATAAN- (RKO)
1945. DAKOTA- (Republic)
1945. THEY WERE EXPENDABLE- (MGM)
1946. WITHOUT RESERVATIONS- (RKO)
1947. ANGEL AND THE BADMAN- (Republic)
1947. RED RIVER- (Montery/United Artists)
1947. TYCOON- (RKO)
1948. FORT APACHE- (RKO)
1948. THE 3 GODFATHERS- (Argosy/MGM)
1949. WAKE OF THE RED WITCH- (Republic)
1949. SHE WORE A YELLOW RIBBON- (Argosy/RKO)
1949. THE FIGHTING KENTUCKIAN- (Republic)
1949. SANDS OF IWO JIMA- (Republic)
1950. JET PILOT-(Howard Hughes/RKO/Universal)
1950. RIO GRANDE- (Argosy/Republic)
1951. OPERATION PACIFIC- (WB)
1951. FLYING LEATHERNECKS- (RKO)
1952. THE QUIET MAN- (Argosy/Republic)
1952. BIG JIM McLAIN- (Wayne-Fellows/WB)
1953. TROUBLE ALONG THE WAY- (WB)
1953. ISLAND IN THE SKY- (Wayne-Fellows/WB)
1953. HONDO- (Wayne-Fellows/WB)
1954. THE HIGH AND THE MIGHTY- (Wayne-Fellows/WB)
1954. THE CONQUEROR- (RKO)
1955. THE SEA CHASE- (WB)
1955. BLOOD ALLEY- (Batjac/WB)
1956. THE SEARCHERS- (C V Whitney Pictures/WB)
1957. THE WINGS OF EAGLES- (MGM)
1957. I MARRIED A WOMAN- (Universal for RKO)
1957. LEGEND OF THE LOST- (Batjac/Robert Haggiag/Dear Films/UA)
1958. THE BARBARIAN & THE GEISHA- (20th. Century Fox)
1959. RIO BRAVO- (Armada/WB)
1959. THE HORSE SOLDIERS- (Mahin-Rackin/Mirisch/UA)
1960. THE ALAMO- (Batjac/UA)
1960. NORTH TO ALASKA- (20th. Century Fox)
1961. THE COMMANCHEROS- (20th. Century Fox)
1962. THE MAN WHO SHOT LIBERTY VALANCE- (John Ford Productions/Paramount)
1962. THE LONGEST DAY- (20th. Century Fox)
1962. HOW THE WEST WAS WON- (MGM/CINERAMA))
1962. HATARI!- (Malabar/Paramount)
1963. DONOVANS REEF- (John Ford Procuctions/Paramount)
1963. McLINTOCK- (Batjac/UA)
1964. THE GREATEST STORY EVER TOLD- (George Stevens Productions/UA)
1964. THE MAGNIFICENT SHOWMAN(Circus World)- (Bronston-Midway/Paramount)
1965. IN HARMS WAY- (Sigma/Paramount)
1965. THE SONS OF KATIE ELDER- (Hal Wallis Productions/Paramount)
1966. CAST A GIANT SHADOW- (Mirisch-Lenroc-Batjac/UA)
1967. ELDORADO- (Lauen/Paramount)
1967. THE WAR WAGON- (Marvin-Schwartz/Batjac/Universal)
1968. THE GREEN BERETS- (Batjac/WB/Seven Arts)
1968. THE HELLFIGHTERS- (Universal)
1969. TRUE GRIT- (Hal Wallis Productions/Paramount)
1969. CHISUM- (Batjac/WB)
1969. THE UNDEFEATED- (20th.Century Fox)
1970. RIO LOBO- (Malabar/Cinema Centre/20th.Century Fox)
1971. BIG JAKE- (Batjac-National General for Cinema Centre)
1971. THE COWBOYS- (Stanford/WB)
1972. CANCEL MY RESERVATION- (Naho/WB)
1973. THE TRAIN ROBBERS- (Batjac/WB)
1973. CAHILL, UNITED SATES MARSHALL- (Batjac/WB)
1974. McQ- (Batjac/Levy-Gardner/WB)
1975. BRANNIGAN- (Wellborn/UA)
1975. ROOSTER COGBURN AD THE LADY- (Hal Wallis Productions/Universal)
1976. THE SHOOTIST- (Dino De Laurentiis/Parmount)


So there you are folks,
that was a big job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Best Wishes,
Keith

Originally posted by ethanedwards@Jul 27 2005, 07:46 AM
the early ones, which Duke may or not have been in,

I'm curious, Keith. You say, and I quote: "which Duke may or not have been in".
If Duke did not, in fact, appear in some of the films you list, then why in the world would you want to include them in what is purportedly a list of "Duke" films?

Most of Duke's filmographies include many or even most of the titles you list in the preceding post but some of those titles I've never heard of in connection with Duke. What is the source of your information in that post?

Hi Jim,
It always been debatable as to to include films,
which he may, or not, have been in.
My personal view, is that the ones where he is
visibly seen or credited, should be listed.
However Jim,as you can see it is really
hard and tedious work, posting
the definitive list.
Most biographers, also mention these'other' films,
so I thought I would too,
Many people apparently have spent many
hours trying to spot Duke,
however I would think in most of the ones
I listed, he is just a prop man!!

Best Wishes,
Keith

Keith,

For the sake of clarity and to make sure we are "all on the same page," I am assuming that by production date, you mean the time when the movie was made and completed, ready for release. Release date would mean the date when the film was first available to the public for viewing.

Talking about the order in which one may choose to list films, the main part of Fred Landesman's book lists the films in alphabetical order, which makes sense if one wants to read about a particular film, but has no idea when it was released. Appendix A in the back of the book lists the films in order of release (I haven't had a chance to compare it to the list already posted).

Chester :newyear:

Hi Chester,
Yes exactly,
but as you can appreciate,
none of it can be an exact science!!

Keith

The list in the closed thread lists a 1946 "film" called DESERT COMMAND. This "film" is nothing more then a cut-down version of the earlier 1933 serial THE THREE MUSKETEERS. I think another poster in another thread mentioned this also.

I can appreciate the listing of a movie by the production date, and understand the reason for the listing. My question is why would you want to list a movie by the completion date when the "public" see a movie by the release date?

The reason for this is the majority of the movie goers see the movie when the movie is released on a certain date. What ever the reason for the delay might be the decision of studio to stall a release date.

For example, a movie with Arnold was to come out the Friday after the 9/11 attack, and it was a terrorist movie on an airplane. Of course the studio decided to hold the release date because of the inappropriate plot of the movie at the time, and was released some 6 months later. No telling how long it was held prior to that, but years from now, that movie (which I heard didn't do well at the box office) will not be remembered as the movie that was held for a long time but one that had a release date in early spring 2002.

Just curious, because I don't really understand.

Cheers B)

Hi

I think if you put Tim Lilley's The Big Trail and Fred Landesmans book together after all Fred's was done in collaboration with Tim you will have a pretty comprehensive list.

I must admit until I read Fred's book I hadn't heard of The Sweetheart of Sigma Chi.

Incidentaly I came across an article on Google saying that a version of Baby Face had been found in the Library of Congress. The film was considered to have been lost, and it is planned to show it at the November London Film Festival. When the article was placed on the web I don't now so it might be this November or last.

Some time ago Roland suggested hat trawling through University and Congressional Libraies migt reveal a lost John Wayne film or two, although as I have a reasonable copy of Baby Face taken off of British television a couple of years ago I hadn't considered it to be a lost film, but who knows perhaps The Oregon Trail is out here somewhere.

Regards


Arthur

Hi everyone,
I have now completed that list.
As to whether it runs in production,
or release order, is up to debate,
personally, it doesn't bother me.
It takes hours and hours, to post a list of this magnitude,
and it's now up to you guys to post, your versions,
should you wish!

Best Wishes,
Keith

Originally posted by ethanedwards@Jul 27 2005, 02:46 PM

So there you are folks,
that was a big job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


19498


And very well done.

Chester: check your PM's.

Hondo: I'm not sure I understand what you are asking, but if I understand this right, the production date would give a more correct picture of what John Wayne did when. That might be an argument for production date. It's no big deal to me one way or the other though.

Regards
Popol Vuh

Hi Everyone,
The list, can be whatever is decided,
I have no personal choice how it is printed,
whether, production or release!
It can be films, visibly seen, and credited,or not,
although, I must say, how do any of us, know, how many films
he was in, all be it,in a small way?
That's why biographers, list all the possibilities!
After the early films, production and release, more or less
are the same anyway, with the notable exceptions, of Red River,
Jet Pilot and probably The Conqueror!
However, I like to watch Dukes films, and see him
mature as we go along, so I must say it would be odd,
to watch Jet Pilot, after The Searchers,
and find Duke is ten years younger!!

Best Wishes,
Keith.

Originally posted by Popol Vuh@Jul 28 2005, 06:08 AM
It's no big deal to me one way or the other though.

My sentiments exactly, PV.

Originally posted by chester7777@Jul 27 2005, 09:31 AM
Keith,

For the sake of clarity and to make sure we are "all on the same page," I am assuming that by production date, you mean the time when the movie was made and completed, ready for release.* Release date would mean the date when the film was first available to the public for viewing.

Talking about the order in which one may choose to list films, the main part of Fred Landesman's book lists the films in alphabetical order, which makes sense if one wants to read about a particular film, but has no idea when it was released.* Appendix A in the back of the book lists the films in order of release (I haven't had a chance to compare it to the list already posted).

Chester :newyear:

19506


Chester,
In the plot summary and notes on each page for the Wayne films, in Fred's book, there is a mention on most of them of when production started and ended, first showing date and official release date. That alpha listing for the films in his book was the publishers idea as Fred's final draft (which I have on a CD he sent me) had each film in original release order. If the publisher hadn't of changed the format, then Fred's book would have been several times better, as a reader (in the way Fred submitted the book) could have followed Wayne's career in a progressive and aging order. But, at that, I go along with Boyd Magers at "Western Clippings" and Chuck Anderson of "The Old Corral" when they advise to get the Landesman book and throw away any other books one has that deal with Wayne's films. And I'm still looking for the first one that deals with Wayne's personal life that is of any value. There may be one but it isn't among the dozen or so that I've seen.

There are a few minor errors in Fred's book, but they are of no consequence as they are primarily printing typos on a few names...none of them effect the data regarding production dates and release dates. Listing a player's films in order of first release date is the standard way of compiling a filmography, but I also include the production dates in my own database, because of such late-release films as RED RIVER and JET PILOT, just to keep up with when and where an actor was working.

Every film Wayne appeared in had its first release date in the US, whether it was filmed here or overseas. Some of the later overseas productions may have had a Premiere overseas but a premiere and being available for theatre bookings are two different animals. The reason that some of these films seem to have conflicting original-release dates is, among other reasons, some of the people who did earlier books on Wayne's films relied upon data found in the trade annuals---Motion Picture Herald, Film Daily yearbooks, etc.---and some of the dates found in those sources are the dates that paticular trade paper "Reviewed" the film and not the actual release date. Film Daily, in the early 30's, would show both release and review dates, but later just started showing only their own review date. And AFI has a lot of those FD review dates listed in their books as the release date. Why? Because their file-clerk researchers didn't know any better. "Aha, here's a date...use it" school of research.

Anyway, ya'll seem to have it all coming together great, and it is nice to read the posts from people who care about accuracy, and will work together to ensure the finished product.

Les

Just so you all know, Les Adams is one of those "resident experts" to whom I referred in the first post in this thread. With his help, I have made a few minor changes to the list in the Filmography thread. One change was the listing of Wheel of Fortune as an entry for 1941. Les brought it to our attention that Wheel of Fortune was a later re-titled, re-release of A Man Betrayed. There was a spelling correction on one of the titles, and footnoted further information on Desert Command.

We are going to remove the list from the quote box so that we have greater lateral space to add numbering, month (as well as year) of release, studio producing the film, and availability as DVD (and in which regions). We'll be making changes a little at a time (we do have a life outside of the message board :rolleyes:).

Chester :newyear:

Well, we started fine-tuning the Filmography, and the formatting is a BEAR :fear: :fear2: . Sorry for all the dots, but spaces just don't work in this venue. We'll chip away at it, a little at a time. When all is said done, at least for now, we are using Fred Landesman's Appendix A, Films in Order of Release. Within the body of the book, in the movie descriptions, there is reference to things like Film Daily or Variety reviews, with dates that correspond appropriately to the stated release date.

We'll work as quickly as possible - hopefully, the next time we'll be able to do twenty the next time (but no promises :uhuh: ).

Mrs. C :angel1: (with Chester doing the background work of looking up the production studio and confirming the dates with references)

( . . . dragging weary bones off to bed . . . )

Hi Mr and Mrs Chester,
I hope you noticed on the list that I posted,
I did indeed list the production studios,
it may save you some time,

Best Wishes,
Keith

ee,

You certainly did include those studios! Thanks for pointing that out - we must have been really tired to not notice it :blink: .

Chester :newyear:

Hi Mr and Mrs Chester,
I tell you, it is really hard and tiring work,
posting a list of that magnitude,
and you have my best wishes,
in trying to edit it.
It might be easier to transfer my list across, and work from there,
it will at least save you having to key in the studios!
I have included a few 'ifs' in there,
but, I have got some factual back up
to substantiate, their inclusion
should you require it,

Keith

Keith,

I thought I asked you this question, but I obviously never posted it.


1928. HAM HAMILTONS COMEDIES- (Fox)

This title is in your list, and I was wondering if you could tell us a little more about it. I couldn't find anything about it on IMDb, and tried Google as well, but didn't really come up with anything.

Thanks!

Mrs. C :angel1:

Hi,

HAM HAMILTONS COMEDIES
two reel comedies from the '20's'

A couple of references, point out that Duke,was a lot busier
with his propping and 'extras' work, then the scant listings of his earlier films suggest.

Tim Lilley, wrote this article in the Big Trail,
and pointed out the following:-

THE FILMS OF JOHN WAYNE
by Ricci/Zmijewsky.1970
for years the standard reference work on John Wayne,
made this interesting statement:-

'Wayne continued working in the prop department(Fox)
and now and then as a stuntman. He also began to get bit parts in Ham Hamilton comedies and Ford films such as HANGMAN'S HOUSE, SALUTE and MEN WITHOUT WOMEN'

This was vindicated by Lee O Miller, the author
of the 1979 book, THE GREAT COWBOY STARS OF MOVIES AND TELEVISION.
Lee O Miller, had the good fortune to interview Duke, and Duke told him:-

'I finally got bit parts in a few other films. Ham Hamilton was the director of those films.
He was a friend of Ford's and the latter asked Hamilton to give me a chance at acting, if he had any bit parts, to cast me in!

Duke also recalled other films he was associated with
BROWN OF HARVARD, NOAH'S ARK.

Although there is no visible proof,that Duke was in these films,
neither is there, for some of the films, we've already listed!!
To include some and not others, may spoil the full 'picture'

Keith

Hi Keith

In Hangman's House John Wayne has a number of scenes, the obvious is the one everybody shows with him demolishing the fence during the horse race. He is also seen in shadow being sentenced to hang and during which his film career almost came to a stop when he got a fit of the giggles. He is also seen running and waving his arm leading the people to the church and actually gets a written line, although for the life of me now I can't remember what it was, but I think it had something to do with religion.

In Salute he is seen regularly throughout the picture, generally with Ward Bond and I have put forward the suggestion that this was the film in which he spoke his first lines on screen.

In Men Without Women if you blink you'll miss him as he is the radio operator seen briefly in the submarine rescue attempt.

I think in Brown of Harvard it is readilly accepted as being one of his, and I would be surprised if he wasn't in Noah's Ark as it had a supporting cast of thousands and I would have thought that the world and his wife would have been it.



Regards

Arthur

Chester,

I saw the changes you made to the list. However, I still think DESERT COMMAND should be deleted completely from the Duke's filmography.

hi ejgreen77

gday firstly

i think desert command should stay in as even though its a rerelease of 3 musketters with the front bits cut of some would prefer this one to 3 musketters so that they dont have to sit through all of the opening rehash from the previous short movie. after all it is still one of his movies no matter how it came about

just my 2 cents worth

hooroo smokey

smokey,

I can appreciate your comment. I myself would rather see a condensed version of these serials with all the flashback sequences edited out (yes I have actually sat through all three of them). The problem is that I still don't think any amount of editing this warrants it being listed as a separate film. I mean, no new footage was added. Let's put it this way, I have a version of The Shadow of the Eagle that was produced in 2003. It has all the flashback sequences edited out and runs for 186 minutes as compared to the 218 minutes of the original. So, should this version be listed as a separate film produced in 2003? Of course not. Neither should DESERT COMMAND. As Les Adams says, I don't want someone 50 years from now to look at the list and think that Duke made a 1946 remake of his 1933 hit, The Three Musketeers. By the way, although I have never seen it, DESERT COMMAND only runs 70 minutes as compared to 210 minutes for The Three Musketeers. So I'd assume that a lot more was cut then just the opening plot summary. But, as I said, I don't think any amount of editing a film warrants it being listed as a separate film. But, that's just my opinion.

Discussions! That's good.

A couple of other things to discuss.
Rookie of the Year and Flashing Spikes. Both of them missing on Keith's list and one of them on mine. Should they be on the list. I havent seen Falshing Spikes, but I feel that Rookie of the Year with John Wayne in the lead role should be kept in.

Keith: Along with the ones you added you also cut out a few from the other list. I assume this is correct, but I guess you could verify?

THE VOICE OF HOLLYWOOD No.13
THE HOLLYWOOD HANDICAP
STARS PAST AND PRESENT


I haven't seen any of these either so I wouldn't know.

Regards
Popol Vuh

Popol Vuh,

You raise a whole new question: TV show appearances. Flashing Spikes was episode # 2.1 of the TV show "Alcoa Premiere" while Rookie of the Year was episode # 1.10 of the TV show "Screen Directors Playhouse." Duke made 52 total guest appearances on TV shows, most notably on "I Love Lucy," "Gunsmoke," "Wagon Train," "The Dean Martin Show," and "The Beverly Hillbillies." Most filmography lists do not list TV guest appearances. IMdB has them listed separately at the bottom of the page. I believe this is the best way to do this.

If I am correct, we are listing movies he appeared in. This is a whole new ballgame if we include appearences on TV, and can you include his movies that are appearing on cable TV today? I think we need to keep this on movies on the big screen. This can be totally complicated.

Cheers B)

ejgreen: Yes, you are probably right about that you might need a seperate list. When it comes to "Rookie of the Year" however I felt that it was John Wayne starring in a short movie. From what I understand Screen Directors Playhouse were all separate stories. They were not linked to each other. At least not from what I could see. I have a couple of these on DVD. Mind you, I'm still not disagreeing with you, just pointing out that it wasn't a regular guest appereance.

Hondo: Yes it is complicated. If it wasn't we could all have downloaded a list from the internet. That's why we need the discussion. I'm just trying raise some questions, since I really don't feel I'm qualified to answer any of these questions. Even if we stay with the movies on the big screen it will be complicated. I believe we would need to discuss a few of the movies individually, and as I see this process has already started.

Regards
Popol Vuh

Reference Movies vs. TV shows and, for whatever it is worth, and I have no bones to pick whichever side of this fence others may fall on:

1.A Movie is a film that was booked into a theatre and people spent cold cash at the theatre box-office to see.

2.A television show is something that was never booked into a theatre, and the viewers paid nothing to watch it...but it is a far removed from being a theatrical movie. ("Lonesome Dove" might be the only TV show exception I'd make to this list.)

Bottom line---his filmography should consist of any film that fits the definition found in No. 1.

Those that fit the second definition should be listed below the Movies in his filmography...as television appearances and footnoted whether it was a filmed show or live as a host or a guest or whatever. And television showings of the films that fit the first definition are not included in this list...else the list would grow day-by-day because some station somewhere( local, cable, network) is showing a real Wayne Movie 24/7.

(I would not include studio weekly newsreels, even though up until the major studios discontinued sending twice-a-week newreels to theatres that had signed up for their newsreel services--- RKO-Pathe, Universal, Paramount News, Warners, MGM, 20th Century-Fox et al--- the premiere of any Wayne film made for or distributed by those studios most likely was covered by those newsreels a few days later. Most of them were, the Republic's excepted, in the newsreels I watched in a theatre in the 40's and 50's.)

I have no issue with anybody who "figgers" otherwise regarding the way I would list Wayne's films by being either Movies or Televison. Or as "Dandy Don" Meredith was fond of saying...'different strokes for different folks" (and as Meredith was quick to point out, he wasn't the originator himself.)

One other possible pitfall I don't recall being mentioned, and this happens mostly on Wayne films beginning in the 1960's (and on some made much earlier): the Production Company and the Distribution Company listed on the same film were often completely different companies which, for total accuracy, calls for a column for Production and another one for (primary) Distributor. Hey, never said it would be easy.

But if anybody can eventually put together the Ultimate Wayne Check List, my money is on the members of this Message Board.

Les

Originally posted by Les Adams@Jul 30 2005, 08:53 PM
1.A Movie is a film that was booked into a theatre and people spent cold cash at the theatre box-office to see.
19738

So using this definition of "Movie" (which seems perfectly reasonable), it seems that Desert Command could appear as a footnote to the 1933 The Three Musketeers. What would be the best way to deal with this?

IMDb lists it in their filmography for John Wayne, Fred Landesman does not. Fred makes mention of it under the listing for The Three Musketeers, but does not have a separate entry for it.

Of course, The Three Musketeers and Desert Command are quite a ways down the list. Maybe we can concentrate on the beginning of the list for now.

Mrs. C :angel1:

Hi

This topic is bringing forth quite a debate which is great and can only be good for the board.

And with all these two cents being thrown in we'll all be millionaires.

For my two cents worth:-

I have no knowledge of the film Stars Past And Present so I am unable to comment, but of the other two mentioned The Voice of Hollywood and the Hollywood Handicap I would count them both as John Wayne pictures, as does Duke the Life and Times of John Wayne.

In the book The Speed of Sound pg 270 the author offers the following:-


'A shapeless but bizarrely entertaining series of one reel shorts called he Voice of Hollywood began production on Poverty Row at this time featuring a conglomeration of second and third tier silent stars cheek by jowel with radio personalities doing what amounted to screen tests. ....... The Voice of Hollywood #13 offered as hostess the serial star Ruth Roland who does a tap dance Charles King who recites a poem; and (thank god) Jack Benney whio dissuades Estelle Taylor from singing and dancing. The essential novelty of sound was rarely made more explicit than in these cheaply made ramshackle shorts.

IMDB quotes the Voice of Hollywood #13 as being completely different with John Wayne as the Host and among others Lupe Velez and Gary Cooper starring, it is for hs reason that I include both Velez and Cooper as appearing with John Wayne. If the Speed of Sound is right then the Voice of Hollywood #13 should not be included but at some point I would think a Voice of Hollywood was made it needs only to clarifywho is right and which number is which. Certainly looking through IMDB's Voice of Hollywood series the cast mentioned in The Speed of Sound doesn't figure.

The second picture THE Hollywood Handicap (1932) was a presentation by the charity group of stars The Thalians Club who ran shows for charity, it should not be confused with Hollywood Handicap (1938) directed by Buster Keaton. described as a comedy short I still consider that the Hollywood Handicap (1932)should be included as a John Wayne film. Although I haven't seen it I believe it is another film in which John Wayne reputeldy sings and plays the guitar. Although the reviewer considers that again it is someone beghind the scenes playing and singing.

To sum up if the Deceiver and College Coach can be readilly accepted as John Wayne films, the first in which he plays a corpse, and in the secons he is seen briefly shaking hands with Dick Powell, then Voice of Hollywood and Hollywood Handicap should be included.


Regards

Arthur

Hate to rain on anybody's parade but have y'all ever heard the expression "making mountains out of mole hills"?

hi all

for the debate about desert command vs 3 musketters i think we should go with mrs c idea and add desert command as a footnote to 3musketters but also noting that it is a shorter version. this could then please everyone and keep the list more factual, how does this idea appeal

cheers smokey

Stumpy,

What!!! You should know that a true film purist like me lives for these things. (Ha Ha!)

Mrs. C,

Hey, just because IMdB lists fake films, that doesn't mean that everybody else should follow them down the wrong path. You already found and deleted two of IMdB's fakes, 10 del Texas, I (1961) and 'Neath Arizona Skies (1962). If you go to the IMdB page on these films, you will see Les has commented on both of them and made a good argument why they should be removed from Duke's filmography. By the way, the book "John Wayne: American" by Randy Roberts and James S. Olson has a filmography list in the back of the book that includes listings of the separate Production and Distribution Companies (good point there, Les Adams). So, if you could get your hands on a copy of that it might help you out.

smokey,

I'd go for the idea of listing Desert Command as a footnote to The Three Musketeers. It's probably the best way to deal with this.

Originally posted by ejgreen77@Jul 31 2005, 01:37 PM
Stumpy, What!!! You should know that a true film purist like me lives for these things. (Ha Ha!)

EJ,
I know it’s impolite to ridicule other peoples’ deeply-held beliefs but I’m a plain-spoken fellow and have always believed in saying what I mean and meaning what I say. So let me just say this; there are people on this board, and everyone knows who they are, who obviously believe that John Wayne was some sort of demigod. He wasn’t. He was a flesh-and-blood human being with all the vices and virtues of other human beings. Just because all of us like his films and the image of strength, dignity and courage he projected does not mean that we must establish a cult dedicated to the Great God Duke. He’d be the first to reject such an idea.

Perhaps we should suggest to Kevin that he post a shrine page so that those who visit the site and who worship the Man can genuflect every time they come aboard.

Now I'll sit back and wait for the incoming. ;)

Stumpy

Thats a bit harsh people in this conversation are simply trying to find out what Dukes first movie appearance was and I'm sure a lot of people are interested.
I agree however that he should not have a 'god-like' status but I don't see that developing on this site.

I agree with regards to the conversation that 'Desert command' is not a John Wayne movie.

What about the movie which includes a montage of scenes from different movies all intergrated I think actors like Roy Rogers, Gary Cooper and John Wayne were all included in this one movie.

:agent:

Originally posted by arthurarnell@Jul 31 2005, 06:39 AM
Hi

This topic is bringing forth quite a debate which is great and can only be good for the board.

And with all these two cents being thrown in we'll all be millionaires.

For my two cents worth:-

I have no knowledge of the film Stars Past And Present* so I am unable to comment, but of the other two mentioned The Voice of Hollywood and the Hollywood Handicap I would count them both as John Wayne pictures, as does Duke the Life and Times of John Wayne.

In the book The Speed of Sound pg 270 the author offers the following:-
IMDB quotes the Voice of Hollywood #13 as being completely different with John Wayne as the Host and among others Lupe Velez and Gary Cooper starring, it is for hs reason that I include both Velez and Cooper as appearing with John Wayne. If the Speed of Sound is right then the Voice of Hollywood #13 should not be included but at some point I would think a Voice of Hollywood was made it needs only to clarifywho is right and which number is which. Certainly looking through IMDB's Voice of Hollywood series the cast mentioned in The Speed of Sound doesn't figure.

The second picture THE Hollywood Handicap (1932) was a presentation by the charity group of stars The Thalians Club who ran shows for charity, it should not be confused with Hollywood Handicap (1938) directed by Buster Keaton. described as a comedy short I still consider that the Hollywood Handicap (1932)should be included as a John Wayne film. Although I haven't seen it I believe it is another film in which John Wayne reputeldy sings and plays the guitar. Although the reviewer considers that again it is someone beghind the scenes playing and singing.

To sum up if the Deceiver and College Coach can be readilly accepted as John Wayne films, the* first in which he plays a corpse, and* in the secons he is seen briefly shaking hands with Dick Powell, then Voice of Hollywood and Hollywood Handicap should be included.
Regards

Arthur

19748



Arthur,
as usual and par for your course, you are about 100% right on regarding 1932's THE HOLLYWOOD HANDICAP. It was produced by The Thalins Club as a fund-raiser for their charities, not unlike the later-day (post 1935 ) Will Rogers annual appeals to the theatre audiences for funds for the Memorial Hospital in Rochester, N.Y. Like the Will Rogers annual appeals, the various studios took turns paying for the production and distribution costs, and 1932 was Universal's year. Outside of club-members James Burke, Vernon Dent, Monte Collins and Jack Duffy, the cast was made up of footage featuring players that had appeared in Radio Pictures (not quite yet fully RKO Radio) features from that year, plus Wayne, Tully Marshall and Billy Curtis (Little Billy) were there in footage from Mascot's THE SHADOW OF THE EAGLE. Just exactly how footage was used from the Radio Pictures features and the Mascot serial, I don't know.

And, as usual and par for their course, the IMDb is all wet regarding the date of THE VOICE OF HOLLYWOOD # 13. Tiffany made 26 of these (13 a year for the 1929-30 and 1930-31 production seasons) and the IMDb has # 26 as being made ahead of #13. The Tiffany people, unlike the IMDb people could count, and they produced # 13 as the last production made in the 1929-30 season, and # 26 was the last in the 1930-31 season. (That 1932 date the IMDb uses might possibly be an overseas first showing, as opposed to a US release date, possibly in the U.K., although U.K. release dates of American films didn't ordinarily fall that far behind the original U.S. date. More likely, just another typical IMDb error.)

Tiffany had a pretty good thing going with their "Voice of Hollywood series." The major studios, eager to promote their own productions at no cost to them, would lend their contract players to Tiffany---"hike yourself free-gratis over to Tiffany for a short they are making"---and, in turn, Tiffany got the talents and services of the players used in these shorts...also free gratis...and the proceeds from the theatre rentals. Gary Cooper and Lupe Velez are there because they were in Paramount's "Wolf Song" at the time, as was George Bancroft in Paramount's "Ladies Love Brutes"; Hal Roach sent over Jackie Cooper, Thelma Todd and "Farina" Hoskins (all regulars in Shorts he was producing at the time) and Fox supplied John Wayne and El Brendel from "The Big Trail." All the players did something new before the Tiffany cameras---no stock footage from their films---but mention of the films they were currently appearing in took place. Not unlike some movie star making a guest appearance on the Bob Hope or Bing Crosby radio (television without pictures) shows of the 1940's.

Oops, dang me...there goes another rubber-plant molehill.

Les

Hi ,
I have not included any TV productions whatsoever,
no WAGON TRAIN, THE LUCY SHOW,
only films made for the big screen,
otherwise we will be including
Glen Campbell, Dean Martin shows,
Rowan and Martin,etc etc.
That why I although I have copies of
ROOKIE OF THE YEAR, and WAGON TRAIN placed
in chronological order in my library,
I have not included them in my list.

Hi Mr and Mrs Chester,

The filmography is shaping up great,
I hope you got my reply comments
about HAM HAMILTONS comedies,
and also one that, Arthur and I have mentioned
THE SWEETHEART OF SIGMA CHI,
If films like BARDELYS and ANNIE LAURIE can be included
without so far, any documented confirmation,
then the above, from what I posted before,
should warrant, these being included!

Hi Arthur and Les,
It was so interesting to hear your comments about
THE VOICE OF HOLLYWOOD and THE HOLLYWOOD HANDICAP.
perhaps you may be interested in the following, further information:-

THE VOICE OF HOLLYWOOD.
John Wayne, played the the radio announcer of the station 'S-T-A-R'
and introduced various movie stars within the series background.
There is a bit of by-play, concerning some stolen jewels, that adds interest to the continuity.
Credits:
SECOND SERIES, #13.
Production Company: Tiffany
Director: Mack D'Agostino
Duration:- 12 Minutes
Released:- January 17, 1932

John Wayne, George Bancroft, El Brendel,
Jackie Cooper, GARY Cooper,
Lupe Velez,Farina,Eddie Quillan,
Thelma Todd, Jack Dempsey, Estelle Taylor.

Those movie stars, who could sing, dance, tell jokes would do so!
Hosts included,
LLOYD 'HAM' HAMILTON

The friendly announcer, in this particular one John Wayne,
would encourage viewers to suggest which movie stars, they would like to see in future episodes!
In Hollywood eyes, this series was inept.
Featuring has beens, at the time, not in our eyes, though,
it was awkwardly staged,underehearsed(if at all),
and everyone concerned, were totally
disinterested, in what was going on!!

THE HOLLYWOOD HANDICAP.

John Wayne, was a guest in this two-reeler, which was part of a comedy series.
Other guest included, Anita Stewart, Bert Wheeler, Dickie Moore,
and Tully Marshall.
As mentioned earlier,
the production company was indeed
The Thalians Club and Brian Foy.
Distributed by: Universal,Directed by: Charles Lamont.
Released:- August 10, 1932

The Thalian comedies, were sponsored by the Hollywood-based acting club, the group Duke had joined, while he was at Fox.

Originally posted by ethanedwards@Aug 1 2005, 07:35 PM
Hi Arthur and Les,*
It was so interesting to hear your comments about*
THE VOICE OF HOLLYWOOD and THE HOLLYWOOD HANDICAP.*
perhaps you may be interested in the following, further information:-*
*
THE VOICE OF HOLLYWOOD.*
John Wayne, played the the radio announcer of the station 'S-T-A-R'*
and introduced various movie stars within the series background.*
There is a bit of by-play, concerning some stolen jewels, that adds interest to the continuity.*
Credits:*
SECOND SERIES, #13.*
Production Company: Tiffany*
Director: Mack D'Agostino*
Duration:- 12 Minutes*
Released:- January 17, 1932*
*
John Wayne, George Bancroft, El Brendel,*
Jackie Cooper, GARY Cooper,*
Lupe Velez,Farina,Eddie Quillan,*
Thelma Todd, Jack Dempsey, Estelle Taylor.*
*
Those movie stars, who could sing, dance, tell jokes would do so!*
Hosts included,*
LLOYD 'HAM' HAMILTON*
*
The friendly announcer, in this particular one John Wayne,*
would encourage viewers to suggest which movie stars, they would like to see in future episodes!*
In Hollywood eyes, this series was inept.*
Featuring has beens, at the time, not in our eyes, though,*
it was awkwardly staged,underehearsed(if at all),*
and everyone concerned, were totally*
disinterested, in what was going on!!*
*
THE HOLLYWOOD HANDICAP.*
*
John Wayne, was a guest in this two-reeler, which was part of a comedy series.*
Other guest included, Anita Stewart, Bert Wheeler, Dickie Moore,*
and Tully Marshall.*
As mentioned earlier,*
the production company was indeed*
The Thalians Club and Brian Foy.*
Distributed by: Universal,Directed by: Charles Lamont.*
Released:- August 10, 1932*
*
The Thalian comedies, were sponsored by the Hollywood-based acting club, the group Duke had joined, while he was at Fox.

19812


Ethan,
Thanks for the appreciated imput, but I think, based on the records from Tiffany I'm looking at and not from other sources, the dates and series number on "The Voice of Hollywood #13" are a tad bit off. It wasn't made or released in 1932 (none of them were) and isn't part of the Second series. As I'm sure you know, Hollywood's definition of a "production season" was the films a studio produced from September of one year through August of the following year. The first series of "The Voice of Hollywood" was made in the production season of 1929-30, and they produced and released a new one every four weeks during that season, and then produced and released 13 more of these during the 1930-31 production season. Tiffany has #13 as the last one made during the 1929-30 season, so the correct designation for this one with Wayne (as the radio announcer) was #13, First Season. It was made in late July 1930 and was released in August of that year. The first entry of the Second series was #14 and was made in September of 1930....and #26 in August of 1931 was the last one made.

That 1932 date for #13 has been floating around for many years because that is the date one of the trade journal reviewers caught it playing in one of the grind-house theatres in New York and that date comes from that review. All of these "Voice of Hollywood" shorts were available and stocked in various states rights exchanges around the country for many years, consequently any one of them (once released) could be rented and shown anywhere around the US in any order for several years.

And this may fall under the heading of coals to Newcastle, as I'm sure you already know this, but the Charles King, mentioned in another thread above in "The Hollywood Handicap" is the Charles King who was in MGM's 1929 "The Broadway Melody", and not the long-time sound-era movie villain Charles "Blackie" King. The "Newcastle" mention is because after close to 45 years of semi-hacking around as a film historian, I quickly learned that many of the most-knowledgeable people regarding American-made films, that I was in communication with, resided in the UK or in Denmark and Sweden.

WOAH, THERE STUMPY!!!

I'm afraid my (admittedly) weird sense of humor may have thrown you off a little. Just for the record, my comment was intended as a bit of lighthearted sarcasm, and I'm sorry if it was misunderstood. I was just saying that you are ultimately right, and that it's something that (in the grand scheme of life) is probably pretty silly. But, I do enjoy films and film history, it is a particular hobby, pleasure, and pastime of mine. So, I carry on conversations like this one simply because I enjoy it.

And as far as making Duke out to be some sort of a god, as you say, he’d be the first to reject such an idea. And I would be second. One of the things that I like about Duke was that he was most definitely NOT a god. Both on and off screen, he made mistakes and wasn't afraid to admit to making them.

Now, as for Desert Command, I said that this film should be removed from Duke's filmography, and have made several (in my mind) good, solid arguments as to why. What I have not received from anyone is just why this film should have been included in the first place. Sure, IMdB lists it, but as I said in my previous post, IMdB lists several fake films. It is a good and worthwhile source, but should not be accepted without question as the ultimate authority on these matters.

As for television, I have tried to compile a list of the Duke's TV show appearances. This is far from my area of expertise, so this list is probably incomplete and/or inaccurate, but here it is:


1. "This Is Your Life" in episode: "William Wellman" 8 December 1954
2. "Gunsmoke" (CBS) in episode: "Matt Gets It" (episode # 1.1) 10 September 1955
3. "I Love Lucy" (CBS) in episode: "Lucy and John Wayne" (episode # 5.2) 10 October 1955
4. "Screen Directors Playhouse" in episode: "Rookie of the Year" (episode # 1.10) 7 December 1955
5. "Climax!" in episode: "The Louella Parsons Story" (episode # 2.23) 8 March 1956
6. "Toast of the Town" (CBS) (archive footage) (episode # 11.14) 29 December 1957
7. "Wide Wide World" in episode: "The Western" 1958
8. "Toast of the Town" (CBS) (archive footage) (episode # 12.40) 21 June 1959
9. "What's My Line?" (CBS) 13 November 1960
10. "Toast of the Town" (CBS) (episode # 14.6) 13 November 1960
11. "The Jack Benny Program" (CBS) in episode: "John Wayne Show" (episode # 11.5) 20 November 1960
12. "Wagon Train" (NBC) (as Michael Morris) in episode: "The Colter Craven Story" (episode # 4.9) 23 November 1960
13. "Cinépanorama" 17 December 1960
14. "Alcoa Premiere" in episode: "Flashing Spikes" (episode # 2.1) 4 October 1962
15. "The Dick Powell Show" in episode: "The Third Side of the Coin" (episode # 2.26) 26 March 1963
16. "Cinépanorama" 26 December 1964
17. "The Dean Martin Show" (NBC) 23 September 1965
18. "The Dean Martin Show" (NBC) 27 October 1966
19. "The Lucy Show" (CBS) in episode: "Lucy and John Wayne" (episode # 5.10) 21 November 1966
20. "The Beverly Hillbillies" (CBS) in episode: "The Indians Are Coming" (episode # 5.20) 1 February 1967
21. "Dateline: Hollywood" 15 May 1967
22. "Dateline: Hollywood" 16 May 1967
23. "Dateline: Hollywood" 17 May 1967
24. "Dateline: Hollywood" 18 May 1967
25. "Dateline: Hollywood" 19 May 1967
26. "The Red Skelton Show" (CBS) in episode: "John Wayne's 40th Anniversary" 1968
27. "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In" (NBC) (episode # 1.7) 4 March 1968
28. "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In" (NBC) (episode # 1.8) 11 March 1968
29. "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In" (NBC) (episode # 1.9) 25 March 1968
30. "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In" (NBC) (episode # 1.11) 8 April 1968
31. "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In" (NBC) (episode # 1.12) 15 April 1968
32. "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In" (NBC) (episode # 1.13) 22 April 1968
33. "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In" (NBC) (episode # 1.14) 29 April 1968
34. "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In" (NBC) (episode # 2.1) 16 September 1968
35. "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In" (NBC) (episode # 2.2) 23 September 1968
36. "The Glen Campbell Goodtime Hour" (episode # 1.4) 19 February 1969
37. "The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson" (NBC) 7 February 1971
38. "V.I.P.-Schaukel" (episode # 1.2) 12 September 1971
39. "The Glen Campbell Goodtime Hour" (episode # 4.1) 14 September 1971
40. "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In" (NBC) (episode # 5.8) 1 November 1971
41. "The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson" (NBC) 14 January 1972
42. "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In" (NBC) (episode # 5.18) 31 January 1972
43. "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In" (NBC) (episode # 5.23) 13 March 1972
44. "The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson" (NBC) 7 June 1972
45. "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In" (NBC) (episode # 6.1) 11 September 1972
46. "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In" (NBC) (episode # 6.20) 12 February 1973
47. "The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson" (NBC) 22 March 1973
48. "Maude" (CBS) in episode: "Maude Meets the Duke" (episode # 3.1) 9 September 1974
49. "The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson" (NBC) 15 October 1975
50. "The Mike Douglas Show" (SYN) 21 September 1976
51. "Biography" (A&E) in episode: "John Wayne: The Unquiet American"
52. "Biography" (A&E) in episode: "John Wayne"

ejgreen,

Yikes! Let's get through the Filmography before we start a "TV-ography" :rolleyes: !

That would be a great topic to pursue in the future, and you've provided a great start for it.

Regarding Desert Command, when we get to that part of the list, it will be changed.

Thanks, all, for your input.

Chester :newyear:

Originally posted by ejgreen77@Aug 3 2005, 09:18 PM
WOAH, THERE STUMPY!!!

I'm afraid my (admittedly) weird sense of humor may have thrown you off a little. Just for the record, my comment was intended as a bit of lighthearted sarcasm, and I'm sorry if it was misunderstood. I was just saying that you are ultimately right, and that it's something that (in the grand scheme of life) is probably pretty silly. But, I do enjoy films and film history, it is a particular hobby, pleasure, and pastime of mine. So, I carry on conversations like this one simply because I enjoy it.

And as far as making Duke out to be some sort of a god, as you say, he’d be the first to reject such an idea. And I would be second. One of the things that I like about Duke was that he was most definitely NOT a god. Both on and off screen, he made mistakes and wasn't afraid to admit to making them.

I wasn't criticizing you, EJ. In fact, your posts have in no way suggested the ridiculously worshipful adulation for Duke that some do. So please forgive me if I sounded critical toward you.

It's just that I think all this worrying about Duke's film appearances during his early career or which TV appearances he may or may not have made is much ado about nothing and in a sense, a reinvention of the wheel. What I mean is - there's no shortage of Wayne filmographies already published.

Hi Mr and Mrs C
I have to agree with your YIKES!!
about a TVography!!
which is well documented in the John Wayne Reference Book.
I find the listings very interesting, but not as relevant as
the film listings.
We has avid fans,can always hope, that 'lost' films will turn up,and we can add to our prized collections.
In the case of TV shows, this is not the case!!
TV shows were rarely recorded, and so will unfortunately never be seen.
It is for that reason, I think a TVography, i
has limited appeal.

Hi all,
What is the whole number of JW movies. In books there is oftein said that he did more than 200 movies, but in all filmographies there is much less. What is the reason of that?

Hi Vera,
I think you will find, when Filmograpies show a figure of 200+
they are probably, incuding some TV and Documentaries!
What Chester, and fellow members are doing here,
is to only list Films which were released through
cinemas, as including TV stuff just clouds the whole issue!
When we have finished,after discussion and agreement, you will find
our list, which will more than likely run under the 200 figure,
be the most definitive, and concise, filmography
ever done, about John Wayne.
I for one will, use it as my master list.

Best Wishes,
Keith

Originally posted by ethanedwards@Aug 20 2005, 04:22 PM
Hi Vera,
I think you will find, when Filmograpies show a figure of 200+
they are probably, incuding some TV and Documentaries!
What Chester, and fellow members are doing here,
is to only list Films which were released through
cinemas, as including TV stuff just clouds the whole issue!
When we have finished,after discussion and agreement, you will find
our list, which will more than likely run under the 200 figure,
be the most definitive, and concise, filmography
ever done, about John Wayne.
I for one will, use it as my master list.

Best Wishes,
Keith

20611

Hi Keith,
I printed your filmography and some filmographies from the internet sites. For me now it is not the urgent question, becouse I have not many Wayne films now and had to see the magjor ones in the nearest futere. But observe the whole is very interesting and it is always an optimistic thought that I haven't seen so many JW films and have a hope to see them in future.
All the best,
Vera

HI All,
May be anybody knows JW film "Hell Town". I didn't find it in the filmography.
Regards,
Vera

Hi Senta.

A lot of the old movies has alternative titles. "Hell Town" is the same movie as "Born to the West".

Regards
Popol Vuh

Originally posted by Popol Vuh@Sep 7 2005, 09:33 AM
Hi Senta.

A lot of the old movies has alternative titles. "Hell Town" is the same movie as "Born to the West".

Regards
Popol Vuh

21250


Hi Popol Vuh,
Thank you for information. I have it under the title "Hell Town".
Regards,
Senta

Originally posted by Senta@Sep 7 2005, 01:39 AM
HI All,
May be anybody knows JW film "Hell Town". I didn't find it in the filmography.
Regards,
Vera

21246

The movies name has been bolderized to "Born to the West"

Hi All,
May be somebody knows, why this movie has got two names&
Regards,
Vera

Originally posted by Senta@Sep 7 2005, 01:31 PM
Hi All,
May be somebody knows, why this movie has got two names&
Regards,
Vera

21264


If you've seen a good filmography of films made in the Thirties and Forties, Vera, you'll find that many of them were given two titles.
Jim

Originally posted by Senta@Sep 7 2005, 02:31 PM
Hi All,
May be somebody knows, why this movie has got two names&
Regards,
Vera

21264


Vera,

Other than working titles ( the title used while in production that was often changed prior to release), most of the films with two titles came about years after original release, when some distribution company would purchase a film from the original releasing company/studio in 1938 and re-release it in 1952...and change the title for various reasons, including: the hope that someone who had seen the original would go see the reissued title thinking it was a different film (and for years the re-release companies didn't have to show in their ads that this was an old film under another title); or some other film carrying a title the same as the original film had was made later, and the original film had to take on a different title to avoid confusion. Plus, in the early years when the studios were selling their old films to television (circa 1949-55), they often changed the titles so the theatre exhibitors, whom they depended on for their major income, wouldn't know some film they were about to run as a double feature or at their drive-in theatre had already been seen for free on television.

There are some other reasons, but these were the primary ones for title-changes.
Les

Hi Jim and Les,
Thank you for the complete information about that point. I saw "hell Town" once more and mention that on the bottom of the screen at the title page it was said in small letters that this film was released under the title "Born to the West". I like the Dukes part in this film, it is rare thing in the early films that his hero chose wrong ways for the first. :rolleyes:
Regards,
Vera

I noticed this same thing on a VERY good Ronald Reagan western. The first Ronald Reagan film I ever got to watch was: "The Last Outpost." I accidently found it on DvD under the title of: "Cavalry Charge." I think "The Last Outpost" sounds as a better name for this fine film.

Anyway, this movie also stars: Bruce Bennett as his older brother and who is a Colonel in the Yankee Cavalry. Reagan's character is a Captain in the Confederate Cavalry. This movie also has Noah Beery Jr in it as a Confederate Sergeant. I forget who else is in this movie.

Originally posted by The Ringo Kid@Sep 8 2005, 10:53 PM
I noticed this same thing on a VERY good Ronald Reagan western. The first Ronald Reagan film I ever got to watch was: "The Last Outpost." I accidently found it on DvD under the title of: "Cavalry Charge." I think "The Last Outpost" sounds as a better name for this fine film.

Anyway, this movie also stars: Bruce Bennett as his older brother and who is a Colonel in the Yankee Cavalry. Reagan's character is a Captain in the Confederate Cavalry. This movie also has Noah Beery Jr in it as a Confederate Sergeant. I forget who else is in this movie.

21298


Hi Ringo,
I saw Reagan only in two films "Santa Fe trail" and "Desperate Journey". I like him in both. your discription of this cavalry film sounds very interesting, so if I come to it some day, I shall try to see it.
Regards,
Vera :)

hi chester

i did some research on john wayne movies avaliable in zone 4/free zone and here it is so far

we are able to get the following on dvd:

the big trail
texas cyclone
two-fisted law
the three musketeers
sagebrush trail
riders of destiny
west of the divide
the trail beyond
the star packer
randy rides alone
the man from utah
the lucky texan
blue steel
'neath the arizona skies
westward ho
texas terror
rainbow valley (in a multi pack only)
paradise canyon (in a multi pack only)
lawless range
the desert trail
winds of the wasteland
born to the west (hell town in zone 4)
stagecoach (so far in multi pack only)
new frontier
reap the wild wind
flying tigers
the fighting seabees (free zone from china)
they were expendable
back to bataan (free zone from china)
angle and the bad man
red river
fort apache
3 godfathers
she wore a yellow ribbon
sands of iwo jima
rio grande
operation pacific
flying leathernecks
the quite man (free zone from china)
blood alley
the sea chase
the searchers
the horse soldiers
rio bravo
the alamo
north to alaska
the comancheros
hatari
how the west was won
the longest day
the man who shot liberty valance
donovan's reef
mclintock (from that other company )
circus world
in harms way
the sons of katie elder
cast a gaint shadow
el dorado
the war wagon
the green berets
true grit
the undefeated
chisum
rio lobo
big jake
the cowboys
cahill - united states marshal
the train robbers
mcq
rooster cog burn
brannigan
the shootist

of this list i havent got only 5 all up i have 66 of his movies. hope you will be able to put zone 4 onto the other list for others to know.

hooroo smokey

Hi Smokey,
It is interesting information. We here is zone 5, but as I noticed all disks for zone 2, plays on all players with no trouble. On my player on computer I changed zone to 1, to be able to see movies for that zone. But when I order some new, I prefer zone 2, becouse it will play any were.
If you are interested I shall post the list of Dukes films available here.
Regards,
Senta

hi senta

that would be good as then chester could admend the list that has been comstructed you may know of some that others may have ommited as they didnt know that they avalible, the ones i listed are ones that i know that we can get for zone 4 as of this time but it changes and as it does i will post here so that hopefully the list can be admended again to include them.

hooroo smokey

Hi all,
In Russia (it is 5 zone) the following films are available on DVD
1/ The Searchers
2. Stagecoach
3. The Horse Soldgies
4. Fort Apache
5. Red River
6. The Quiet Man
7. Cast a Gigant Shadow
8. The Cowboys
9. Rio Bravo
10. El Dorado
11. Green Berets
12. True Grit
13. In the Harms Way
14. War Wagon.

Also was on VHS
Rio Lobo
Train Robbers
How the West was Won
Chusum
The Shootist (the only one that I can't catch here, but I saw it listed)
Regards,
Senta

I quickly glanced through the list, and i believe I noticed only 3 that I did not have.
Im unsure of which zone I am in however.

-IHW

smokey and Senta,

Thank you so much for your input as to availability of DVD in other regions. We have been real busy lately with some personal business, but as soon as we can, we will incorporate your information into the list.

Chester :newyear:

hi chester

thanks mate hope you get sorted out soon what with one think and another. just thought that you would like to post so that others could see as well.

we try our best to help out keep smiling all will come good soon ( trouble comes in 3's and you have had yours and then some)

hooroo smokey

Hi all,
I can add that Undefeated came on DVD here on these days.
Regards,
Senta

The Barbarian & the Geisha will be released soon in the UK (9. February I think it was).

The Legend of the Lost is available as a region 2 release from Italy.

Regards
Popol Vuh

Originally posted by ejgreen77@Aug 3 2005, 10:18 PM
Now, as for Desert Command, I said that this film should be removed from Duke's filmography, and have made several (in my mind) good, solid arguments as to why. What I have not received from anyone is just why this film should have been included in the first place. Sure, IMdB lists it, but as I said in my previous post, IMdB lists several fake films. It is a good and worthwhile source, but should not be accepted without question as the ultimate authority on these matters.

19890


Just to update everyone, IMDb has just updated their site, and removed Desert Command from JW's filmography (http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0000078/). They are, however, now including his appearences on "Rookie of the Year," "Wagon Train," "Flashing Spikes," and "The Dick Powell Show."

E.J.

It seems IMDb has made several changes in their listings of John Wayne's movies and TV appearances (these changes may be across the board, but we haven't checked other performers to see :rolleyes: ).

Whereas in the past they had a separate category for TV listings and appearances, now they list many appearances as "Himself" under a category by that name (and that includes quite a few TV appearances). Any place where film clips were used are listed under a category called "Archive Footage" (Desert Command is listed there).

Flashing Spikes (1962), Rookie of the Year (1955), and The Colter Craven Story (1960, a special episode of Wagon Train) all seem to be movie-length (at least an hour long) specials that were on TV, but are listed in the filmography. These were previously listed under "TV Appearances" if I remember correctly. I don't recognize The Dick Powell Show, but I think that falls under the same category as the three others.

Fred Landesman does not list any of these TV films in his filmography, which lists a total of 169 films (IMDb shows 176, but includes the above mentioned). Fred also does NOT list Desert Command in his filmography.

Chester :newyear:

Hi

In his book Fred also doesn't list Cancel My Reservation either. For what reason I don't know

Regards

Arthur

Originally posted by arthurarnell@Jan 30 2006, 07:16 AM
Hi

In his book Fred also doesn't list Cancel My Reservation either. For what reason I don't know

Regards

Arthur

26196


Hi
I agree, this should be included,
but I don't agree with switching TV shows To the Filmography.
I think they should be, kept separate, otherwise, it will all get confusing.
To be factual, a Filmography, should only include Full feature Movies,
which were made for theatre release.
TV films, should be separated and treated as such.
Our Filmography, only lists, theatre releases.
How can Duke presenting a Dick Powell film,
be included in a John Wayne Filmography!!

Keith,

We agree with you, and have no idea what drove IMDb to make such a decision.

Maybe Les Adams might be able to shed a little light on the subject.

Chester :newyear:

Hi Jim.
I also note, it doesn't include the BOB HOPE film,
CANCEL MY RESERVATION
Ok, only a cameo part for Duke,
but nevertheless, a full length movie, that he appears in!!

Originally posted by ethanedwards@Jan 30 2006, 05:14 AM
Hi
I agree, this should be included,
but I don't agree with switching TV shows To the Filmography.
I think they should be, kept separate, otherwise, it will all get confusing.
To be factual, a Filmography, should only include Full feature Movies,
which were made for theatre release.
TV films, should be separated and treated as such.
Our Filmography, only lists, theatre releases.
How can Duke presenting a Dick Powell film,
be included in a John Wayne Filmography!!

26200


Chester,

I'm not certain exactly which IMDb decision you had reference to when you wrote I might be able to shed a little light on the reasoning. But, they recently installed a new program they call Full Episode Support, that is supposed to be able to list the cast/crew credits on every television program by the episode...e.g....each episode of "Gunsmoke" will now have a site page of its own. Before, the "Gunsmoke" listing had just the regulars shown (from all the years) and below that the people who appeared in various episodes were all lumped together under "Guest." Never mind that these people were actors hired to play a fictional role in some "Gunsmoke" episode and calling them a Guest was inane to the Nth degree.
Anyway, this Full Episode Support program, in theory, would have enabled an IMDb "User" to look up specific episodes of ANY television series to see who played what on each. But, when this program went "live" a few days after the first of the year, it appears to have had a mind of its own (the site is really, really good about installing programs they run amok, as they evidently don't do any cause-and-effect or consequences measurements before they let a mad cow out of the barn)...and, at the moment, Full Episode Support has screwed up just about everything on site in huge glumps, including the few site pages on films and people that were correct...and those were few indeed to begin with.

One more time...if any of you see something on there that appears a bit off plumb, the odds are about 99-1 that it indeed is plumb off plumb...and one needs to walk carefully through this mine field of misinformation...especially at the moment, and until they get this mess fixed. Don't hold your breath. They have programmed-created messes from Day One that still have not been corrected. On their present course, they are rapidly approaching Wikipedia for unreliability.

Les

I really haven't been keeping up to date lately, but today by chance I found a bunch of releases from Universal in region 2. They are all being released 5th of June and are all parts of the earlier giant box set from Universal. I really didn't have time to go through them but I think there are about 10-15 new releases and re-releases. If any one has time to browse through the lists here is a link:

Play.com releases 5th of June (http://www.play.com/play247.asp?page=comingsoon&r=R2&title=0&searchtype=genre&id=0&p=57&g=72&adudisc=y&who=&linkBack=&pa=gencs&ob=date&fd=5+Jun+2006&ld=5+Jun+2006)

There are over 200 releases for that day so you have to browse 20 titles at a time.

If anyone has a better link please post it here. If not I will wait until Amazon has them listed.

Regards
Popol Vuh

Well, here is the list:

Conqueror, The
Fighting Kentuckian, The
Hell Fighters
Jet Pilot
Lady From Louisiana / Flame Of The Barbary Coast
Magnificent Showman, The
Pittsburgh / Dakota
Quiet Man, The
Reap The Wild Wind
Rio Grande
Rooster Cogburn
Sands Of Iwo Jima
Seven Sinners
She Wore A Yellow Ribbon
Spoilers, The
Stagecoach
Tall In The Saddle
Three Faces West / Shepherd Of The Hills
Tycoon
Wake Of The Red Witch
War Of The Wildcats / In Old California
War Wagon, The


RRP £ 9.99
You can pre-order from DVD.CO.UK or PLAY.COM, if you don't already have the big box set that is.

They Were Expendable will be released in the UK 21. August.

Hi

Very interesting topic although I think Duke did more than feature in Allaghaney Uprising or to give it its English name The first rebel.

Regards

Arthur

Hi

Very interesting topic although I think Duke did more than feature in Allaghaney Uprising or to give it its English name The first rebel.

Regards

Arthur

Arthur, the version mentioned (an edited feature)
was one that was released in 1984.
Of course Duke starred in the 1939 feature film,
and that is rightfully listed in the Filmography,
and reviewed here!!
Allegheny Uprising (http://www.dukewayne.com/showthread.php?t=1855)

Thanks to Elly,
This 'find' Careful Please ,also changes the history of
Duke's Filmography.
It has been long considered that
Brown of Harvard was the first movie where Duke was first visibly seen,
now this has changed, well at least for the time being.
If the production dates run true, which I feel sure they do,
then Careful Please now becomes that 'first' movie!

Hi

Looking at it it certainly seems to be Duke in the fight scene another first added


Regards

Arthur

Hi Keith

this also casts doubt over when JW met Ford.

JW said Ford asked Hamilton to give him bit parts. If this is correct then

JW met Ford BEFORE 7 February 1926

and as I have it on good authority that these shorts were 2 months from start of production to release

JW met Ford Before December 1925

Hi Keith

this also casts doubt over when JW met Ford.

JW said Ford asked Hamilton to give him bit parts. If this is correct then

JW met Ford BEFORE 7 February 1926

and as I have it on good authority that these shorts were 2 months from start of production to release

JW met Ford Before December 1925
Elly, I agree!

We all believed Duke met Ford on the Fox sets,
from your research, it could be, that he met him on the Hamilton sets.
However, did he indeed meet Ford, say about the time of
The Iron Horse etc.

Interesting stuff, all this!

Elly, I agree!

We all believed Duke met Ford on the Fox sets,
from your research, it could be, that he met him on the Hamilton sets.
However, did he indeed meet Ford, say about the time of
The Iron Horse etc.

Interesting stuff, all this!

Well you must be psychic

I just waded through the 2 hr 29 min US version of the Iron Horse looking for JW as my thinking was that could have been where JW met Ford and O'Brien and

there were sheep in the Iron horse and something about that and references to JW being hired to herd sheep was nagging at me.

It has taken almost 20 hours of stop start slow, ultra slow viewing and the result is I MAY have spotted JW.

I say MAY because I would like to look at the UK version first. (slightly better quality but shorter at 2hrs 12 minutes)

The Iron Horse was released 4 October 1925

BUT it premiered in New York 28 August 1924

http://www.afi.com/members/catalog/DetailView.aspx?s=&Movie=9950

So was JW in the movies before August 1924?

I am bothered by the fact that if this is correct why this film was never mentioned by JW or Ford.

I know Ford was a contrary old...... but he has cited the Iron Horse as his favourite film.

I am going to post a new topic specifically asking for references about when JW met Ford and see what we can turn up. As well as doing further library research myself.

Hi Keith

What you say about JW being in school etc is generally what is said in most of the books I have read. However we do know that whilst in school he was also making films

Brown of Harvard - Production started September 1925

Careful please - Production started December 1925

Bardelys - Production started March 1926

Great K&A train robbery _ Production started May 1926

All during JW Freshman year.

I have read a few time JW did part-time jobs to pay for his college. I have never once read for example JW worked at the seven-eleven to suppliment his scholarship.

Was this what was meant? part-time holiday, weekend or evening work in the movies? Any movies and any studios that would give him work?
After all of the four films mentioned above only the great K&A train robbery was produced by Fox.

I am now of the opinion that a lot of references are just clues and when you get a few together, read between the lines, make allowances for faded memories then you follow it up!

There were sheep in Mother Machree as well as geese.






Elly, from my research for what it's worth.
I read in all my books that Duke was very much in college
in and around 1924/25, and it was his meeting with Tom Mix,
in June 1926, that Mix invited the young footballers,
to the Fox Studios for summer jobs.!!
There is no mention of Duke being involved
in movie studios before this time!!

In that's the case, how did he get involved with Lloyd Hamilton,
if in fact this was earlier?
Unless of course he met Hamilton later in his series of comedies,
which would explain Careful Please in 1926.

So Iron Horse could prove correct.
I hope your hours of wading through this film are fruitful
as once again you could be altering history
and all the associated books will have to updated!!

Yes he did herd sheep, but in which film?

Mother Machree is the gaggle of geese, so where were the sheep?