Hello Everyone! I'm new to the board here at jwayne.com but have been a huge duke fan my whole life. I would like to know if anybody knows of any plans of a cleaner, better, newer version of "The Big Trail" to be released? Twentieth Century Fox certainly didn't do it justice. This was one of the first widescreen movies to be filmed and yet they released it in full frame format. Besides that, the original film ran somewhere around 145 min, so why is the dvd release only 108 min long? Finally, and this is the least of them, there are no extras on the dvd. An old classic like this deserves much better. If any body knows anything about future plans for this film, I would certainly be interested. Thankyou.

The Big Trail is simply a story of hard luck. This film is the Chicago Cubs and Boston Red Sox of JW films. Its a great show, but under a curse. It was released at the time of the stock market crash, and was a box office failure. It contributed to a false notion that no one wanted Westerns, and the genre all but died until Stagecoach a decade later. It also killed the career of the leading lady in the film, and sent Wayne back to the poverty row B studios where he wouldn't make his escape until Stagecoach. All that for a film that really is pretty good. Then when it was "rediscovered" the sound track was damaged, and so part of it is missing, and then when the DVD was released, they didn't do anything special for it. Go figure. I really like the film.

GSP

JDW,

WELCOME to the John Wayne Message Board, the best of it's kind on the 'Net! You have found the greatest place for John Wayne fans to hang out and have some thought provoking and fun conversations about one of the greatest stars to ever grace the silver screen!

GSP pretty much said all I know about The Big Trail. I agree that the missing section(s) of film and lack of more bonus materials on the DVD would be disappointing, but considering how old the film, we're fortunate to have any of it at all, especially after hearing some of what itdo has to say about film deterioration.

Check out some of the other threads on new releases and such. Plenty of info there.

Chester :newyear:

Is this true that segments of 'The Big Trail' are missing is this on the DVD version alone or also on the VCR version.

:agent:

Hello there JDW; .....nice to meet you, as to The Big Trail being edited it seems to be a common thing on dvd's. Searching on e-bay for some films can be a problem. I usually e-mail the seller for the running time of the video if it isn't listed on their page. I have bought a couple dvd's that were edited versions and was very dissapointed. No bodys fault but mine because I didn't do my research. The IMB is a good place for reference to the running times on movies. I find that VHS usually are the full length features but they should still be looked into if you are not sure. One thing I also find now is that some of the new stuff is in color now instead of B+W. I may get flack from the B+W purists but I do like the color versions a little better. Keep the posts coming JDW and watch the "DUKE" with a friend....SaddleTramp....

Originally posted by SaddleTramp@Feb 5 2004, 05:59 PM
Hello there JDW; .....nice to meet you, as to The Big Trail being edited it seems to be a common thing on dvd's. Searching on e-bay for some films can be a problem. I usually e-mail the seller for the running time of the video if it isn't listed on their page. I have bought a couple dvd's that were edited versions and was very dissapointed. No bodys fault but mine because I didn't do my research. The IMB is a good place for reference to the running times on movies. I find that VHS usually are the full length features but they should still be looked into if you are not sure. One thing I also find now is that some of the new stuff is in color now instead of B+W. I may get flack from the B+W purists but I do like the color versions a little better. Keep the posts coming JDW and watch the "DUKE" with a friend....SaddleTramp....
Hello again Saddle Tramp

It isnt your fault you purchased an edited DVD, it should never have been edited in the 1st place. Regarding Dukes movies I was wondering if this messagebaord should start a section stateing the movie and its exact running length in minutes. Even if one source states 130 minutes and the running time is actually 131 you could miss out on a minute extra Duke time which by anybodys standards would be bad. ;) How or where would a person go to find the exact running time, I have over 60 Duke movies on VCR and a lot were taped from TV so for all I know some may have a scene or two missing.

:agent:

Hi ROBBIE; .....I get some of the running times off the Internet Movie Database. How close they are is something I don't know. I think most of their info is close. Another trick I use is e-bay. Find two different sellers, one with a vhs and one with a dvd and compare the running times. Some times a quick e-mail to a seller will get you the info you need or at least the info they have. I recently bought the Hurricane Express on dvd only to find it was edited to 78 min. I then bought one on VHS and it is 227 min. Quite a bit of editing! It seems that it is usually the dvd's that are edited. I don't know if it is for quality or what. VHS are usually fairly grainy on the real old stuff but if I can't get the whole thing I don't want it. I don't think I am the only one who has suffered this deception. The Three Musketeers is another one that I have seen edited on dvd. It should run about 210 minutes, give or take a couple min. Shadow of the Eagle is another at 218 min. These are all 12 part serials. And beware the Young Duke series . these are 3x56min. westerns cut down to 69 min. And if you see the High and Mighty or Island in the Sky in dvd it is a scam. I have seen one e-bay seller trying to sluff this off. He won't answer my e-mails when question him so I think he is a crook. Ask questions when buying. If you can't get them answered to your satisfaction then move on to some one who will.....SaddleTramp.....

JDW,

Welcome to the greatest message board in the world for a great talk about John Wayne. I have the DVD version of The Big Trail, and it is 108 minutes. In my filmology of John Wayne movies, they list the movie to 125 minutes. There is 17 minutes from the original.

I broke down and bought this movie, but neglected to check the time. I haven't sit down yet to see this movie, and I don't know what will be missing, nor will I know after I see it, since I haven't ever seen this movie before. But I'd be interested in knowing why 13% of this movie is missing, and it's not because it's saving DVD spcae.

Cheers, Hondo B)

Hello Hondo Duke Wayne;.... I do believe some of these films are edited to fit in a 2 hour time slot for tv. I recently purchased Big Jake and there is a scene that I had never saw on tv. before. It was when they were picking buckshot out Patrick's backside after the shootout with the Texas Rangers and the Kidnappers. They just have to have room for advertising. For those who have satelite or cable tv. maybe they run full length,I don't know.....SaddleTramp....

Hi Saddletramp (do you have any other names that you would prefer to be called as I don't like calling you saddletramp it sounds a little rude)

That buckshot scene is commonly cut out of TV versions of Big Jake according to the IMDB, I suppose it isn't really important to the storyline, however I do wish that if TV broadcasters do decide to show movies they show the entire movie and do not edit them to accommodate their own agenda.

Regarding 'The Big Trail' does the VCR version have the full running time.

:agent:

Some time ago, I read somewhere that all the serials have an edited version released as "feature film" in cinemas.
Several films were released for the second time some years after the first. Sometimes second releases were shorter. Maybe The Big Trail DVD is a second release.

Nathan Brittles welcome to this messageboard

Does this mean that there could be a first release of 'The Big Trail' in its entire version within the marketplace.

:agent:

This is the first release of The Big Trail. I have kept up with most of Duke's movies, and when this movie was released, I didn't realize that is was shorten. I am very disappionted. I haven't seen this movie yet. And I had it for a while now.

Cheers, Hondo B)

Hello Robbie;... Don,t let the SaddleTramp moniker bother you. I have had the name or nickname for 30 years. A saddle tramp was part of the old west. He was the guy who traveled from outfit to outfit looking for a handout or a odd job or even a short term riding job. They were also called saddle bums. I got the nickname back in the CB radio days and it kinda stuck with me. I wandered from job to job for a couple of years untill I got married. I finally got caught(a saddle tramps worst nightmare). After almost 25 years I am almost used to it.SaddleTramp is my name,don't be afraid to use it....SaddleTramp....

There are several versions with several different lenghts.

As you all know, The Big Trail failed at the box office mainly because Fox introduced a new widescreen process. The theatre-owner were supposed to rebuild their moviehouses accordingly with a wide screen but with the depression going, this was a money gamble they wouldn't take. So The Big Trail was seen in this format only in a handful of cinemas. Fox wouldn't re-introduce the idea for another 20 years. But then Cinemascope came back to stay. This original 70mm print (you notice the difference) was 158 minutes long. I imagine this included an overture music, maybe a walk-in music, entr'acte, exit music, as it was the case with such an "event" film. But when Fox buried the idea of Widescreen it certainly had no more use for the 70mm print - it just couldn't run anywhere to make money. So you guess yourself what they did. Fact is, that print wasn't reintroduced later.

At the same time, Fox was wise enough to print the standart 35mm prints. That print was 125 minutes long. By the way, at the same time, Walsh even shot another film for domestic market: A German version with German actors in the lead role.

The print now commonly used is the 108 minute print on the DVD. I have seen it on a movie-screen once being exactly the same, and that print came from the Swiss cinematheque, the national film-archive, which is one of the largest. So my guess is the print that went into the archive - if it made it at all because there is no rule to it - is the 108 min. print.

Of course, we shouldn't give up hope that through some miracle the widescreen print pops up. You never now. But chances are slim. Maybe somebody in the US wants to inquire directly, either at Fox or at the Library of the Congress.

Have watched the DVD and compared to the 1990 Fox-Video release. It's the same length, the same version (the Fox PAL video declares running time approx. 116 min. There's another difference about lenghts: PAL and the US format, NTSC - spell: NEVER TWICE THE SAME COLOR - run at different speed).

So I wanted to let you know we don't get cheated by the DVD version. It's still the same one.

Itdo,

QUOTE (itdo @ Feb 15 2004, 12:50 AM)
and that print came from the Swiss cinematheque, the national film-archive, which is one of the largest

Haven't heard of this film archive before, is it as big as our Library of Congress archive? I would presume you have allready checked it out for other rare films,
maybe of a John Wayne variety :rolleyes:

Chester :newyear:

PS Looks like you are very close to your 600th post. ;)

Originally posted by SaddleTramp@Feb 14 2004, 08:32 PM
. . . until I got married.* I finally got caught (a saddle tramp's worst nightmare).* After almost 25 years I am almost used to it.
Saddle Tramp,

Yeah, I've been married a little over 25 years, and I'm almost used to it, too :headbonk: .

Chester :newyear:

Donno about other film archives but I certainly won't be as big as the US Library of Congress. It all depends on how much money you want to spend on saving films. Right now the Swiss cinematheque once again appeals to politics and public to give more money or some of the oldest Swiss films will be about to detoriorate (saving film costs money). Had the good fortune of seeing it once, it's not open to the public. You can't just walk in. There are busy bees working on prints, restoring them, placing away rare posters and the sort.
It's only when there would be an hommage or something like that in a movie-theater (and only selected ones, we don't want to have stupid projectionists ruin rare film, won't we?) that a film from the archive will be shown.
But as an author for a book you have the possibility to go through the fotos, etc. to look for illustrations which you can rent. Pretty fascinating. Doesn't look it from the outside. It's near Geneva, in the countryside.

Gee Whiz Chester 7777;.... I saw your picture,are you sure you aren't one of "JW" long lost relatives. Or maybe you were his real life stuntman...SaddleTramp...

In doing my research on John Wayne movies on DVD I stumbled across some fascinating information (which most of you probably already know, but it's new to me).

John Wayne's first leading role was in Raoul Walsh's The Big Trail. Now Raoul Walsh became a very well known director, so his involvement at this early stage in both his AND John Wayne's career alone make this film noteoworthy, but what is really amazing is that The Big Trail was filmed in a (somewhat) experimental 70mm widescreen format! 23 years before widescreen went into regular use by the studios!

So after reading about that I immediately jumped to Amazon to see if it was available on DVD - and sure enough it was!

Then I read the details - full screen only, not widescreen - and according to some of the reviews it is a shorter version missing 10 or 15 minutes from the full version.

What's up with that? A pioneering widescreen movie with John Wayne in his first leading role directed by the legendary Raoul Walsh and the DVD comes out in a shortened full frame (butchered) version?

Is the widescreen version of this film lost or did Fox (I think it was Fox) just make a REALLY bad decision?

This movie deserves a special edition treatment because of the historical significance of the EARLY widescreen process AND because of Wayne's and Walsh's involvements. On top of that it's supposed to be a pretty darned good movie to boot!

Anyone know anything more about why this one ended up in such a butchered version on DVD?

B5Erik,

We've discussed this and itdo came in with a great reason for the edited version. Go to Big Trail Post (http://www.dukewayne.com/showthread.php?t=752&hl=The+Big+Trail)

Cheers, Hondo B)

Thanks. I kind of figured that they did a standard print for most theaters, I was just hoping that a widescreen print was saved somewhere.

Every now and then someone stumbles across a rare print of a classic movie where some private collector owned it and left his collection to his kids and they had no idea what they were sitting on - or they find it in a vault or a warehouse somewhere.

I'll just keep my fingers crossed about this one. The Big Trail really is a HUGE piece of cinematic history - the sad thing is that they just didn't know it back in the early 30's!

We have had topics on The Big Trail before, but last night we watched it again, maybe for like the fourth time, and I have to tell you, this film is so unique in many ways. For those of you who don't know this was Wayne's first BIG chance, and it was released in 1930 and for whatever reason was a huge flop. But its a decent film.

Now its often been said that Wayne's acting skills were poor early in his career, and he improved until he landed the role in Stagecoach. But I have to say, his job in The Big Trail was far better than what you might expect. He was natural, relaxed, and unhurried (unlike what you often see during his B movie time (1930-1939).

In fact, whe The Big Trail opens, and Wayne rids up on his horse and hollers, "Hello Zeke" it was as natural and warm as if he had said it in The Commancheros. Yeah, he has some weak moments here and there, but all in all, he did FAR better than in all the films leading up to Stagecoach.

Speaking of his opening line, this got me thinking, In his first Big film, Wayne really opens his career with "Hello Zeke", of course he ended his career in The Shootist with "Its my birthday, give me the best in the house...thank you sir."

Does anyone know what was literally the FIRST lines Wayne ever uttered on film? Did he have any lines prior to The Big Trail?

GSP

Hi GSP

If we take Salute as his first talking picture his is heard first at a mess dinner with Ward Bond shouting a Football Chant at Frank Albertson and William Janney. His first spoken words are:-
'He didn't mean the audience, he meant what do the actors do'

Certainly he had no lines to speak in Hangmans House

Salute was released September 1 1929 and Words and Music in which he also had a bigger speaking part, September 15th 1929.

Incidentally I haven't run the picture through for a long time but I think that in the final scene when the Navy coaches celebrate John Ford is seen standing among them.

Regards

Arthur

Arthur,

Where would one get a copy of Salute (or some of his earliest films)?

We have a copy (of a copy) of Hangman's House, which we got from a fellow John Wayne enthusiast, but finding the other older movies seems to be quite a feat.

So . . . which ones do you have of those early films, and how did you get them
. . . old buddy, old pal :D ?

Chester :newyear:

Hi Jim/Sue

Most of my collection of John Wayne pictures are on VHS including his early ones. I was offered five films by a member of the board Lady and Gent
College Coach Rough Romance Maker of Men and Cancel My Reservation, for $50 The condition of the quality varies from fair to bad.

The Drop Kick and Arizona I bought on e bay along with the Three Musketeers

And Salute, Men Without Woman and Hangmans House were among a batch of John Wayne pictures I was sent from a source in Canada.

These three are quite watchable but are on VHS, My son assures me it is possible to put them on DVD but the mechanics of it are completey beyond me, and of course there is the question of region compatability.

Perhaps William or Sky Viper can offer some of their expertise.

It seems a pity that there is no way on this Forum to share films after all we are all happy to share information, surely in this age of computers we should be able to make and share discs.

I know this mght not sound promising but from the germ of an idea who knows.....


Regards

Arthur

I'm not sure what copyright issues might exist on movies that old (maybe none), but if someone had the right equipment, couldn't they copy the info onto a computer, and upload it for others to access (from VHS to DVD to computer)?

I think I've mentioned this site before, but have you checked out the Gold Buckle Network (http://www.goldbucklenetwork.com/)? I don't know if they still do, but they used to have The Angel and the Badman on streaming video. Maybe they have the ability to make something happen, that would make sharing our stuff a possibility.

Possibly even Kevin has the ability, with his server, to upload movies, but then again, you're getting into the copyright area, especially as the movies get (relatively) newer.

Just thinking "out loud" - anyone have any other thoughts/ideas?

Chester :newyear:

I'm still waiting for the widescreen version of The Big Trail to come out on DVD. It's been shown on cable, so there are good prints out there to use. The widescreen version is practically a historical document and should be available on DVD.

The movie is significantly different between the two versions, but I want to have a clean slate when I finally get to watch the widescreen version.

Originally posted by General Sterling Price@Apr 23 2005, 09:36 AM
In fact, whe The Big Trail opens, and Wayne rids up on his horse and hollers, "Hello Zeke" it was as natural and warm as if he had said it in The Commancheros. Yeah, he has some weak moments here and there, but all in all, he did FAR better than in all the films leading up to Stagecoach.


'The Big Trail' is most likely my favorite pre-Stagecoach film. That being said, I can not agree that his acting was far better in this film, then others he made during the 1930s. Films like 'Conflict' come to mind, when thinking about his improved acting skills, some 7 years later. He carries a much more confident style of acting in this film, then he did in 'The Big Trail'.

'The Big Trail' is high on my list of John Wayne films. It's scope and beauty can not be denied....but his acting was still pretty green at this point.

I came home from work today, and what's on the Fox Movie Channel? The Big Trail! Now it doesn't mention letterboxed (which they usually note on DirecTV), but I check it out just in case - and the channel isn't coming in!

OK, I'll give it a few minutes - I've waited a while to see this, I can be paitient.

12 or 13 minutes later it comes back on and is indeed the widescreen version!

So I saw about an hour of the movie - and it was pretty darned good! And - Good God! John Wayne looked SOOOOO young! The movie is very entertaining, and it is just so neat to watch a widescreen movie from 1930!

Even though the print is in poor condition, it's more than watchable. In fact, I've seen worse prints by far on DVD, so I can see no reason not to release this version on DVD. They could even anamorphically enhance it for widescreen TVs - it would still look better on a widescreen TV than just zooming in on a non-enhanced version!

Ultimately, what is really called for here is a 2 disc set with both versions and some documentaries - 1 on the making of the movie (widescreen & standard), 1 on John Wayne's early career, and 1 on director Raoul Walsh. This movie is that historically significant.

I just wish I knew someone at Fox Home Video so I could convince him/her to do it....

Hi B%Erik

I have a copy of the Big Trail DVD released I think by 20th Century Fox, I don't know what creen its in.

I don't tink in the early 1930s anyone had the concept of making 'The making of the Picture' type of documentry.

In the case of the Big Trail, if they had according to the book it would have shown a bunch of actors drinking and whoring their way through the west, and John Wayne being constantly sick with the stomach disorder he had while making the picture.

Regards

Arthur

Originally posted by B5Erik@May 26 2005, 10:23 PM
I came home from work today, and what's on the Fox Movie Channel?* The Big Trail!* OK, I'll give it a few minutes - I've waited a while to see this, I can be paitient.* 12 or 13 minutes later it comes back on and is indeed the widescreen version!



Since you get the FOX Movie Channel, keep your eyes open for their showing of 'The Barbarian and The Geshia'. They broadcast that one in wide-screen as well! Now, I know it's not a great film...but you will be amazed at how much more picture information there is, on the LBX presentation, as opposed the the pan-and-scan version we've all seen.

Originally posted by falc04@May 27 2005, 09:04 AM
Now, I know it's not a great film...

Careful, that's one of my favorite JW films. :lol:

Seriously, I know it doesn't get a lot of praise from critics and other people but I really do like it because the Duke plays completely against type and I thought did a pretty credible job of it. Besides, Japan is one of my favorite foreign countries. I visited it several times while in the service and was very impressed with not only the country's natural beauty but the Japanese people as well. They're some of the cleanest and most industrious people I've ever met. And I thought had the sexiest women.

Stumpy,
I'm like the Viper,
I tend to agree with you,
I enjoyed the BARBARIAN, it was OK, but more than anything,
so did my wife, and if I can find any Duke film, that my wife will enjoy,then it has to be good!!

Originally posted by arthurarnell@May 27 2005, 12:37 AM
Hi B5Erik

I have a copy of the Big Trail DVD released I think by 20th Century Fox, I don't know what screen its in.

I don't tink in the early 1930s anyone had the concept of making 'The making of the Picture' type of documentry.

In the case of the Big Trail, if they had according to the book it would have shown a bunch of actors drinking and whoring their way through the west, and John Wayne being constantly sick with the stomach disorder he had while making the picture.

Regards

Arthur
17015


I'm hoping for NEW documentaries on the making of the movie. Of course, I'd imagine that everyone involved in making it has passed on, but that's the case with a lot of the gangster movies that Warner Brothers just released on DVD, and each of those had nice documentaries with film historians and critics discussing the making of the movies, and the significance of those movies. There's a lot that they could do - and this film deserves that kind of treatment!