RED RIVER: the panning camera when Dunson looks around right before the drive starts: One of the most famous shots ever:
We see Dunson LOOKING at the cattle. (when you cut from a shot like that, the next cut is always the point of view of this character). So we cut to his POINT OF VIEW: We see Matt, we pan along the cattle, and pan and pan... then the shot comes full circle and ends with Dunson! This causes a moment of disorentation in the viewer because we actually are looking through Dunson’s eyes at the moment. So in the end we really see Matt’s point of view! We have seen the POV from two men at the same time. Movie-history. And the meaning? At the beginning of the drive, Matt and Dunson really have the same point of view.

THE SEARCHERS: Removing the arrow: a symbol used to eliminate something that stands between two characters: Ethan changes attitude to Martin after the removal of the arrow. It’s the emotional highpoint in RIO GRANDE between father and son as well.

THREE GODFATHERS: What they need most is WATER – the christian symbol for babtism. It is denied to them in several situations until they reform themselves.

LIBERTY VALANCE: Hallie is the symbol for the desert and vice versa: See her appearance in the times of the old frontier: her hair is open and wild. In the later sequences her hair is „tamed“. She tells Ransom: Look at it: this was once a desert. Now it’s a garden. He taught her to read (to become civilized). The one who wins the girl will be the one who brings the law to the wild west. But the desert (and the times of men like Doniphon and „Liberty“ – note the significance of the name) – will be gone forever.

HATARI: The hunting of animals is really the allegory for the hunting of the male sex for the female sex and vice versa: at day, the big game hunters do their job hunting animals – but always at night, the hunt for the other sex is on, using every trick and trap to rope one. That symbolism is pointed out by Sean when he tells Kurt to keep to work in one line (can’t remember the exact line right now, something like): „It’s spring and the bucks are running with their heads at each other...“ Until in the end the animals turn the hunt around and really chase the humans (the baby elephants).

RED RIVER: In the climax, the ZOOM on Matt’s Face and Steady Eyes are helping us to understand: Dunson told young Matt in the beginning that by watching the eyes of an opponent, you know when he draws. So when we see Matt’s eyes in that Zoom, we know he won’t.


SHADOWS and dark SILHOUETTES as symbols of nearing death have been used by both Ford and Hawks: Note the shadows in THEY WERE EXPANDABLE when the crew visitis the dying comrade in the hospital, the dark silhouettes of the 3 Godfathers at the burial of the mother. The shadows closing in on Ward Bond in his death scene in THE LONG VOYAGE HOME. The shadows haunting Bunk Kennally responsible for the killing of Harry Carey jr. in RED RIVER (when the cowboys found the death body)...

OK, now join in! Let's move 'em out!

Okay, here goes...

Water. Water is a very big deal in The Three Godfathers - no doubt about it. Water symbolizes redemption through Christ. I don't have time to get into it in depth, but this entire film is an extended allegory about the Christian faith - the birth of Christ is paralleled by the birth of Robert William Pedro, the three godfathers are obviously stand-ins for the three wise men of the gospels, trials in the desert (Jesus fasted for forty days and faced temptation from the devil in the desert), rebirth by water (Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist, Christians the world over are baptized)... I'd have to see it again in order to tell more but it's full of this kind of allegory.

At Terrapin Tanks, Bob (Duke's character) mentions that he's going to strip down naked (being naked symbolizes getting down to the core - to the root of a man's essence) and immerse himself in the water. It's natural that this is something that a man who was thirsty and hot would want to do, but it's also a cry of spiritual longing - a cry for baptism and rebirth. (Adults that are baptized are fully immersed; they don't just have water poured on their heads like babies.) But because Perley and his minions are there waiting for him, they can only stare longingly at the water that's flowing so freely but is as of yet just out of reach.

We know that Bob doesn't have the kind of faith that the Kid and Pete do; they're certainly not model citizens but it's clear that they have some kind of faith in God: the Kid knows his Bible and believes that God is trying to speak to them, Pete refers quite often to his "Signor" and spends a lot of time looking up to the sky. Bob is skeptical throughout and he even mentions at one point that they can wait from "now until I get religion" - he knows he's spiritually dry.

There's a lot more I could say but I'd have to watch the film again in order to do the topic justice.

Non-symbolism related questions:

Re: Liberty Valance - do you think Hallie really loved Tom but knew Ranse would be a better choice?

Re: Red River - does it almost look like Matt is crying when they zoom in so closely on his eyes?

Yesssirre, Jenny – (oh, this discussion is gonna be fun)

Ford loves the Christian allegories – for some critics at the time he put it on too thick (you know, over here the Catholic Church watched over the German version film releases, and doggone they cut out a big chunk of Godfathers because they must have felt it’s blasphemism to have gangsters act as the 3 Wise Men!) Note the composition Ford used the year before with Henry Fonda in „The Fugitive“ – he has Fonda posing in some cruxification situations.

In 3 Godfathers, it’s really Bob Hightower who has to be „saved“, the film is really about him (as the baby’s name starts and ends with his name) – his companeros are already believing in God – which he doesn’t. And that’s the whole point of the film: finding faith. „Is that all?“ he asks when the Kid sung over the grave. Whenever Pedro and Kid are helping the baby or doing Christian things, Bob, through the framing of the shot, is absent (left alone, for example, when the others find the box) or sits on the other side (being removed from a group by lighting and framing, the shot in Liberty Valance is a good Ford example: When all of Doniphon’s friends sit together at the funeral, big shot senator Stoddard sits excluded from this group – even though he’s in the same shot).
True, God’s prophets and the Christ himself had to suffer in the desert before they could go on to do God’s work (and after that Bob Hightower is truly fed in biblic proportions, including a cake to break out of prison).
The wind, by the way, is blowing everywhere except where the wagon stands.
When the town sings the religious „Bringing in the sheeps“ which mixes with the orchestral music, the theme from „Shall We Gather at the River", yet another religious song, Bob’s soul is truly saved – nobody seems to be talking about the money they stole – and in fact after the robbery we never get to see it either. It’s just gone from the film which is about wealth of the soul.

Real quick for now...

I'm just going to make a minor correction... the song is "Bringing in the Sheaves" - a song about harvests real & spiritual.

I also must correct myself... Pedro refers to his “Señor," and not his "Signor." Oops. I guess it's obvious that I don't speak "Mex-lingo." :rolleyes:

You added some excellent points. I really want to watch this again now and see what else I find!

Hi Jen
thanks for the correction - sheaves, of course. About your Liberty-Valance-question: Was Hallie still in love with Tom? That same question Peter Bogdanovich asked John Ford who answered in his typical manner: "I thought we made it quite obvious." Of course she still loves him when she plants that cactus rose on his coffin. So why did she choose stutterin' J-j--jimmy S-s-s-tewart when she could have lived happily ever after on the JW ranch? Women!!! They love a man who's able to cry. Did you notice that Ranse is always back on the couch which is offered so freely to him, always when he is in need of help: 1st, Doniphon himself plants him there, so Hallie can take care of him. 2nd, he has to take a seat when he is shaken up, and 3rd, he sits there again, being nursed by Hallie, when being shot by Valance. Love that recurring theme.

Hi again!

Well, I know there was a part of Hallie that loved Tom, but I don't know if it was the right kind of love for marriage. Hard to say. See, the thing about women and men who can cry isn't always that simple. I think most of us like a masculine macho kind of guy who knows how to cry when it's warranted, but not someone who whines and blubbers.

I love Jimmy Stewart and think he's one of the finest actors ever. I don't think Duke could have done George Bailey so wonderfully. I would however add that in this film he was just a teeeeeeeensy bit much for me - a little too melodramatic at times. Maybe it was because he was acting next to Duke who managed to underplay a little bit.

Btw, just have to say that my cat is sitting here while I type this and he seems enthralled by the mallet headbonk thing on my screen. :headbonk:

Hey, I have a cat as well, and she doesn’t like noisy films (should I move to off-topic discussions with that problem?)

JW as George Bailey? Hmmm. The scene in which he has to take a punch from the barkeeper wouldn’t have worked – JW would have taken that Saloon apart – end of picture. AND he would have cured Thomas Mitchell by throwing a bucket of water in his face, Stagecoach-style.

Anyway: Hallie choosing Ranse over Tom has nothing to do with the casting, of course!
Hallie being the symbol of the desert/the wild frontier, she becomes civilized/a garden (taught/tamed by Ranse) but there are of course the momories of a romantic past. Note that all the scenes in „modern“ Shinbone are in bright daylight – it doesn’t look like a moody western at all. Stark, not really interesting to photograph. Then look at the difference: The „old“ Shinbone is almost only filmed at night. All the important scenes are played out after sunset. There is mexican music, horses galloping by, etc. Does Hallie still love Tom? This part of her does – just as we do. The rational mind says of course that there must be law and order, and the taming of the frontier. Yet the romantic part wishes that it could be like „in the old days“, when a fight was settled on the street by two men, not in court (Doniphon himself brings the doom upon himself, the ending of „Liberty“ in the Old West, by breaking a code of honor, by shooting Valance – thus loosing the old west/and Hallie – he triggers the new west by saving Ranses‘ life several times and making room for him). The first music heard in the film is when she and Link reach Tom’s burnt-out house – that’s the love-theme of the film, indicating she’s still in love with him. And with this same melody the film ends. (one critic noted that the train, as he passes through the new desert-garden in the beginning and ending of the film, doesn’t at all look like that glamorized image from the past; it’s steaming through this landscape and the black ugly smoke is blown to the side and covers everything – thus indicating what civilization brought to the old west).
I always found it interesting how Ford used Stewart’s mannerism to the advantage of showing senator Stoddard (in the modern part of the film) as being a rather unsympathetic fellow – highlighted in the moment when he presses a couple of dollar bills into Woody Strode’s hands when he just wanted to shake it. „I’ll write a letter to the railroad...“, „to whom am I giving this interview, anyway...“, sending Hallie away to talk politics when he should be mourning. Things like that. It’s clear where Ford’s sympathies are.

(hey Jen, are we the only ones in this discussion??)

The infants in both Wayne directed films The Alamo and Green Berets - little Lisa and the little Vietnames orphan - represent the states:

Lisa is the symbol of the young state of Texas, young in years, has to be protected. That's why the birthday party scene was important to the plot.

That Giant of a man Wayne takes the orphan Vietnamese by the hand in the final scene with the words "You let me worry about that - YOU'RE WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT." - the American(s) helping the infant state of Vietnam.

(hey, these are just opinions in this topic - one might disagree!)
;)

My two cents word about the symbols in Rio Grande mentioned in the post "Two Questions about Rio Grande":

Ford gives importance to the gesture of the Putting down the glass upside down (I think the camera pans down with the movement). Nobody in that tent knows what it means – either do we. That’s the point. It is something intimate that is only between Yorke and his estranged wife, something they shared in their past, a ritual known only to them. Yet we can figure I means something like: All said, no more toasts, I agree – something like that.
See another gesture of putting-down-a-glass-upside-down in Spielberg’s Raiders of the Last Arc (he was an avid student of Ford’s work, so maybe...) In a „Making Of“ he is seen directing this shot and calls it „a moment of victory.“

The Confederate Money in my opinion means: Even though York fought against the south, he kept this bill – - which became worthless after the ending of the war, it’s only a memento of this lost past – a past he keeps in good memory. The picture on the bill shows the gallant soldiers of the South at their fighting best. For York their is a fondness even in those memories. For Kathleen, it brings up bitter feelings – having seen the South loose the war and having seen her plantation burn. The war is what seperated them in the past – and still does, in this gesture. The war comes up – and the romantic mood in which Kathleen has just been goes out the window. So to me that bill is a symbol of their relationship: in the past, very romantic, but hurting.

BTW, in foreign versions like in Germany this shot was cut out completely because the distributors figured nobody at that time had the knowledge of the war between the states. The ending (playing the Dixie) was also cut down and several times the dialogue was changed when it involved the war.

Roland

This is far from an easy question as many of Dukes movies are layerd with symbols.

For example Red river

In the scene where Dunson is about to whip the cook a cloud drifts by in the sky diluteing the sunlight. This is a symbol for the violence that is about to take place.

At the start of the movie Duke wears a white hat and when he becomes and older man the colour changes to black this is to symbolise Dukes transistion from good to evil (if not evil at least quite ruthless).

The Shootist

At the start we realise it is the turn of the centuary and Dukes character belongs to the last centuary Duke himself symbolises the old west itself almost extinct and this could be translated a step further to the extinction of the western genre.

Ron Howard throwing the gun away at the end symolised a rejection to violence.

The Quiet Man

The kiss scene in the graveyard and the storm that arose simultaneously sybolised the sin they were commiting with regards to the catholic belief at that time.

The Searchers has an awful amount of symbols in it but I will save that for a future post.

:agent:

that stick question from The Quite-A-Man again!
If it was a Hitchcock picture you could bet the appearence of a prop even as small as a stick and as irrelevant to the plot would have a meaning, because he used to plan in advance and write out and block out and storyboard all the scenes – no improvising once you get on a set. Now Ford was the contrary. By many accounts he loved to improvise, he even made up whole parts from a scratch, he threw lines to bit-players. So if in Quiet Man a stick would appear just once it could be a thing they just picked up when shooting, a moody thing. But:

The symbol of the stick appears THREE times in the movie.

First, after their argument, when Sean WALKED THE WHOLE WAY home – it’s Mary-Kate who places a stick in his hand to suggest a beating - Sean throws it away. They haven’t had sex to this moment.
Second, when he walks her THE WHOLE WAY and a spectactor suggests the stick. Sean throws it away!
Then, in the very last shot of the movie, he unconciously holds a stick – and Mary-Kate throws it away – he won’t need that anymore.

I guess it’s sure to say that the stick business has some sexual meaning. Sean isn’t allowed to go to bed with Mary-Kate (he sleeps in his „sleeper-bag“ as the IRA-members find out, he didn’t break the bed down – „homeric!“ – by having sex with his wife. He has to put on an act so „not to shame Mary-Kate in front of his friends“, as she herself says the morning after the wedding. It’s shameful not to sleep together once your married, and Sean’s not wanting to fight and loosing face in front of his wife has much to do with the symbolism of impotence. So the appearance of the stick and finally the lustfully throwing away of the stick fits right in.

Here's my take on A Lady Takes a Chance. Not all of what I say is deeply symbolic, just an exploration of the way I interpret the film. I've only seen it twice but when I started to write a few words this morning... well, it's almost kind of embarrassing the way the whole thing kind of exploded. Oh well - I had some time to burn and you guys get to reap the benefits. ;) (Sorry if it's too long.) :rolleyes: Don't read it if you've never seen it, though - spoilers herein.

First of all, in this film there is an extended courtship metaphor. Of course, it’s pretty obvious, because a real courtship is taking place in front of our eyes. Molly meets Duke in a pretty unorthodox manner: he’s riding a bucking bronc, which is in and of itself suggestive of oh… one thing or another (trying to be delicate here). Anyway, he is thrown off the bull, and lands right on top of Molly. The position the two of them are in here is quite obviously emblematic of the “marital act.” What a way to meet someone for the first time! No wonder they’re sort of intrigued by each other right off the bat.

The two of them go to a saloon, where there is a good deal of dancing and a good time to be had by all. Here we meet Waco, who Duke refers to throughout the film as his “better half.” They have a bit of a marriage relationship, obviously it is not a sexual or a romantic relationship, but like Tom & Groot in Red River, they are a team. Waco has a stake in the relationship and doesn’t want Molly to usurp his position as Duke’s better half. He doesn’t worry at first, because like Duke, he thinks Molly is just going to be another rodeo groupie, like all the other ones that eventually crowd Molly & Duke’s table. (“Sit down!!! More beer!!!”)

Eventually, after a lover’s spat, a bit of gambling, a bit of drinking, and a barroom brawl (a typical night, no doubt, for Duke!), they wind up lying side by side in a big pile of hay. This position is again emblematic of a couple in bed, this time lying side by side. They draw closer through conversation, Duke at one point adopting a husky, romantic tone and saying, “When did I ever meet a girl like you?” just before leaning in for a kiss. This attempt to draw them closer is aborted by the nervous Molly, who’s probably feeling a bit drunk from the cactus juice cocktails and from the nearness of the eminently virile cowboy. A girl can’t be too careful.

The next scene important to this aspect of the story finds them in Duke’s hotel. It is clear to us, but not to Molly, that Duke has done this kind of thing before. The men playing cards look up and watch knowingly - almost with a blasé air. This is something they’ve seen time and again. Duke stops sneakily and artfully and asks the hotel worker to bring a bottle and two glasses up to his room. It appears to have been perfectly rehearsed the way he sneaks off to the side and rushes up to meet Molly on the stairway before she even has a chance to notice.

Inside the hotel room, Duke is clearly trying to stall and buy time as he waits for the porter to bring his alcohol. As soon as it arrives, he makes a major move, telling Molly she looks beautiful and leaning in for a kiss. She is shocked and more than a little disappointed to discover that Duke is a wolf, and not the sweet sensitive guy she thought he was. He clearly wants to speed things along past the courtship and marriage and straight to consummation. Maybe he was only trying for a kiss, but something tells me he wouldn’t have protested if things had moved beyond that.

The next part of the story finds Molly as a third party in the marriage relationship between Duke & Waco. Notice that the two of them lie next to each other for warmth while Molly must try to make it on her own (and winds up stealing Sammy’s horse blanket). (Again, I’m not trying to suggest that there is a romantic relationship between Duke & Waco; it's just an extended joke.) When Molly is frightened by coyotes, she eventually decides to sidle up alongside the sleeping Duke. He is momentarily stirred, and in his sleep, rolls over onto his side to face her. She ridiculously grabs a rock, to use in self-defense in case Duke tries any moves on her.

The next morning we find Molly awakening to chirping birds with a very satisfied smile on her face. She is lying on Duke’s chest and feeling extremely warm and contented. Again, this is a couple in bed, this time waking up after a night spent together. She snuggles up to his arm and then suddenly realizes where she is.

Molly has inadvertently made Sammy sick which in turn ultimately brings about a deepening of her feelings for Duke. When she sees how much he loves his horse she realizes that this is a man who would really know how to love a woman. Here we see Waco step in again and try to put a stop to things; he is torn between his affection for Duke (and Molly) and for his desire to have things stay the way they are. He tells Molly she's only going to have her heart broken.

Once they know that Sammy is going to be okay, Duke suggests that they go out to eat. On a little date. The only problem for Molly is that Waco will be dining with them, and she wants something a little more private and intimate, perhaps remembering what happened the last time they were out with Waco. She’s standing her ground and means to take over as the better half. She decides to cook dinner for him at her overnight cabin. As they stand at her cabin door, she leaves it open for him – symbolically inviting him into her life, her home, her bed. (Remember the significance of doors in other Wayne films – particularly The Searchers.) There is a wonderful moment of heightened tension between them here. They’re staring at each other and for me at least it feels like things have been taken to a new level. Waco shows up and wants to intervene again, telling Duke to go eat right away (a bossy spouse!), but Duke says he’s not hungry as he stares deeply into Molly’s eyes. He tells Waco to bring Molly to a grocery store and says that he’s got to go get cleaned up. He’s got rather a naughty and expectant look in his eyes here as he walks away from Molly’s door.

So Waco is again forced by the bossy Duke to serve as an instrument in bringing he and Molly together: Duke tells him to bring Molly to a grocery store, where she buys “four nice lamb chops” for she and Duke’s dinner. Waco tries yet again to dampen the proceedings, telling her that he’ll just throw the chops at her rather than eat them. She says no he won’t; she’s not his better half yet.

The next important scene finds Molly in a typically domestic scene; she’s wearing an apron, she has her hair pulled back into a scarf, and she’s busily cooking up a nice meal for her man. We see Duke primping in front of a mirror and impatiently getting hungrier (Waco, still the dutiful spouse, tells him he looks “pretty”). Again Duke’s better half tries to intervene, warning Duke that Molly is trying to hook him; he’s wild and never been tamed and this girl means business. Duke says he means business, too, but we wonder if he’s got a different kind of business on his mind…

Molly really is trying to hook Duke. She’s got her little place all set up to look like a home to try and tantalize Duke into seeing how nice things can be when a man is married and settled. He literally swallows it all – hook, line, and lambchop. He does choke for a minute – on the dessert (“sunset on the desert”). The wild studly stallion isn’t quite ready to take the bit that will ultimately break him. Molly helps him get it down and they kiss; he’s deeper entrenched now than he was before! Molly then asks him to help her with a task that only a fully domesticated male would submit to: he helps her with the dishes. (Remember earlier that washing the tinware dishes was Waco’s job.) We see her slip a frilly woman’s apron on him (an apron on Duke is ample fodder for a few laughs, I must admit!) and he still seems utterly drunk with love for her and the domestic spell she’s woven over him. But when he goes back into the dining area to clear the table, he catches a glimpse of himself in the mirror and all bets are off. A man can only take so much! He’s just not ready to be lassoed.

Eventually she does get him, but we notice that it’s on his terms and by the end of the film the manly man is the one calling all the shots and carrying the female home in his arms. (Somehow I don’t think Molly really minds, though!) Duke tells her not to worry about a job; he’s got one for her because he fired Waco.

Good review, Jen! The relationsship Waco/Duke is significant, as you pointed out.
Also note Duke Hudkin's and Molly's change of dress:

Hay gets in their clothes (so everybody thinks they actually took their clothes OFF)
He dresses up a little when invited for dinner.
When tamed, he wears a tie in the last scene (and instantly becomes a target of the bully cabdriver)
Molly's pyjama (!) is hanging out of her suitcase.
Her suitcase breaks open and he clothes spill over the floor.
She uses his horse's blanket as a cover.
She dresses up as a house-wife when she invites him.
She dresses him as a softie and asks him to wash dishes.
In the saloon brawl, some pants (!) land on her head!


Will be off the board for some time, have fun in the meantime!

Sorry I'm a little slow on the uptake, Roland. Haven't had a lot of time of late. I follow where you're going with the stick thing and I think you might actually have something there. I definitely think it's sexual - I guess I didn't connect it with impotence and frustration and all of that, but it certainly makes sense once I look at your argument.

I like also what you say about clothes in A Lady Takes a Chance. What do you think this is meant to symbolize? Their evolving status as potential mates? I never thought about the tie having anything to do with the cab driver trying to fight Duke... seems a stupid thing to try, tie or no tie! ;)

I wouldn't read too much into the clothes thing... although those screwball comedies used a lot of symbolism in their time (so the Hays office and the censors couldn't touch them). I guess the changing of clothes in this film just illustrates the way the characters are going: from being romantic to finally getting married. And a cowboy wearing a tie IS an uncommon sight - that illustrates Duke got civilized in the end, and therefore becomes an easy target in civilized surroundings. However, tie or no tie, he hasn't changed a bit - as the cabdriver finds out very sudden.
If you liked this one, try Cooper's "The Cowboy and the Lady", from 1936 - lots of fun.

Now this is a bit off-topic but I just thought about the film in which the clothes-business, the stripping down of a character, was fully realised, and that's Polanski's "Frantic":
As the plot unfolds, Harrison Ford looses all of his clothing (his shoes fall down a rooftop) until he is completely naked and gets beaten by a French cop. At this point, he is stripped of every dignity he had before and after that wakes up a changed man. This could go further, but it's the JW messageboard!

Anyway, back to topic:
The shadows emerging from the gravestones in both Yellow Ribbon and The Searchers: what do you think of these Fordian symbols y'all?