One of the most interesting aspects to John Wayne for me personally was his complex friendship with John Ford. I am interested in finding out stories about how they actually got on and felt about each other. I know that this is a huge topic and I am interested in any information no matter how small.

:agent:

I just finished a book about JW. It talked about his and Ford's relationship. It was one in which Ford looked down on Duke. He belittled him in front of cast and crew. Ford did not have much to do professionally with Duke in the 30's. JW publicly praised Ford, but privately "railed" against him. This according to the book I read, "Duke, The Life and Times of John Wayne".

hi robbie,

i watched the making of the alamo and durning the interview they spoke to a camera man who told of ford coming onto the set unanounched and sitting himself in the directors chair and this camera man said that duke was none to pleased that he was there and to keep ford out of his hair he told this camera man to go off and shoot some sences with ford, even though they were never used in the movie. so i would say that by this time they must have had a love hate relationship who knows.

cheers smokey

Hi

This is a very old topic that went unnoticed I thought there would be a big responce so I am bringing it to the top again.

:agent:

I don't think I have anything new to add, but weren't they more or less friends off the set? I thought I'd read where they used to have all night parties on board Ford's yacht - along with Ward Bond and some other cronies.

Hi Robbie,
I have read many books about John Ford, It appears that you either loved or hated him and depending on your viewpoint this decided what facet of him you chose to adopt.
To my mind John Ford although a brilliant director had a personality flaw. I believe he was insecure with a tendency to have to prove that he was the top man, his habit of constantly chewing a handkercheif while shoot I think illustrates this fact He demanded absolute loyalty without question from everyone that he allowed to get close to him, and if you let him down he never forgot or hardly ever forgave. In todays world and hinted at then, besides a character flaw, there may have also been a sexual flaw deeply concealed.

If I can use three examples of for want of a better word his pettiness-

A. from January 16 to April 11 1931 Ford took of on a sightseeing trip to the Far East. Instead of taking his wife, Ford gave her ticket to his long standing friend the silent star George O'Brian. During the trip Ford got so drunk that he was confined to bed and disgusted O'Brien took off on his own for ten days. On his return nothing was said of the incident but it was seventeen years before O'Brien worked for Ford again and never again starred in one of his pictures.

B. It is well documented that on the set of Rio Grande Ford's favourite Ben Johnson fell out with the director and although he was allowed to remain in the picture Ford did not use him again until 1964 - fifteen years after the alledged slight.

C. It is beyond arguement that John Wayne had Ford to thank for giving him a start in films. It is also recognised that Duke loved Ford like a father. But when John Wayne took the role of the scout in the 1930 Big Trail I believe Ford took this as a personal affront and ostrecised Duke for the next eight or nine years to the point where if the two men passed in the street Ford wouild look the other way.

Throughout his career it is often stated that Ford used every means possible to humiliate his actors and even as late as the 1960s on the set of the Man Who Shot Liberty Valance often had Duke storming off of the set unable to take any more of Ford's humiliation.

Yet for all of this only three directors had the power to click their fingers and duke would come running, Howard Hawks, Henry Hathaway and John Ford, and in the case of the latter it can be said that not only did Ford rule Duke's picture career he almost ruled John Wayne's every day living.

Regards
Arthur

There were other incidents with Duke and Ford. In They Were Expendable, because Duke didn't go into war, he was very hard on Duke, and didn't give him top billing (it went to Robert Montgomery), and he gave their rank to himself and Montgomery. Duke took it on the chin, and made a good movie. I think that Pappy (Ford) forgave Duke after that movie.

Duke took a lot off Pappy. It paid off with the fact that Duke very seldom had to shoot a second take while filming off any picture.

Cheers, Hondo B)

Hi Author

Regarding your post above did Ford not recommend Duke for the role in The Big Trail.

Were there ever any occassions when Duke stood up to Ford?

:agent:

Hi Robbie

To 're-surrect' this thread.

John Ford and Howard Hawks both had one thing in common, they liked to take credit for everything and they also made up events that suited them.

John Ford took credit later for recommending John Wayne for the Big Trail. if this is the case why did he otriscse him for ten years after he made the picture.

I believe the official version that Raoul Walsh spotted a bare chested Mariopn Morrison moving props on the Fox lot and recommended him to studio producer Paul Sheehan

It was Sheehan who settled on Anthony Wayne after the Revoloutionary General Mad' 'Anthony Wayne and Sheehan and Walsh who between them came up with John.

I firmly believe that John Ford had as much to do with John Wayne appearing in the Big Trail as I did with building the Tower of London.

With regard to Wayne standing up to him I can think of two instances (although there were probably many more)-

The first was during making 'They Were Expendable' when a windsreen which was supposed to have been shatterproof exploded in Wayne's face when ball bearings meant to represent bullets were fired at it.

Wayne went to go for the crew member with a hammer in his hand and was stopped by Ford saying That's my crew .
And Wayne said it's my face.

The other was when Ford was older and clearly past his sell by date, when he called for his stock company to make pictures, all of them Wayne included found excuses not to be there, considering that by that time they had paid their dues to the director.

But for all that If you get the chance to read a little book called John Ford by Joseph McBride and Michael WEilmington published by Martin Secker & Warburg Limited (1974)

The first chapter deals at length with Ford's funeral and John Wayne's emotional state during it.


Hope this helps

Arthur; I think it was a Love , Hate thing with Ford, and even Maureen will say the same thing! You are right John Ford had a very large flaw, but Duke and Maureen still liked to work for him, because they thought that he was a very great Director. Duke and Ford were almost like a "Father and Son" thing. MAUREEN (http://www.wyntoontrip.com/QUIETMAN.html) Chilibill :cowboy:

I found Harry Carey Jr's book "In the Company of Hero's" a good read. There's allot of insight into John Ford aleast from Dobe's perspective.

Hello All I am very strong in my opinions on this subject and by that I mean hair up lip back fist clenched toe to toe ready to go do it now battle primed. I have read all the posts and I will be an alien if I don't feel proud to consider myself a member of a group of honest realistic gutsy people. I read in John Wayne America the Duke was working on a set b 4 his big break. Pappy the brilliant, and at times demonical maniacal sob, was directing. Duke was employed on set as a result of Tom Mix ( who is described as a good actor and a bit of a snob ) wanting a box at the stadium so he could take friends to watch USC games. The football team coach negotiated with the studio and this resulted in Tom getting his box for a season in exchange for the coach being able to send some of the players on his team to the studio for employment. JW and Ward Bond among others were sent to the studio to work as a result. Mr Morrison ( Duke) was throwing handfuls of leaves in front of a fan to establish a windy fall atmosphere. Duke was bored, and young and that says it all. Duke would throw leaves and after the cut ( break in shooting) he would go rake them up and rebag them for the next take. At some point he lost track and went out gathering while the shot was rolling. I have seen this type of thing happen many many times and there are no exceptions in terms of cast or crew doing the same, at one point in their film industry careers. Pappy screamed CUT and fled his directors chair and then came onto the set where Duke stood. Pappy asked a question, the answer to which, he already knew. Pappy asked Duke if he was sent by the USC coach. When Duke confirmed this fact pappy asked him to demonstrate the tackle 3 point stance. When Duke put one fist to the ground, leaned forward on that arm, and tucked the other under his chest, Poopy ( John Ford) Kicked him hard and sent Duke tumbling. I make no apology for the title poopy. Nobody and I mean nobody kicks John Wayne and keeps my respect. Then Robbie, in terms of your question--did Duke ever stand up to Poopy ( Ford), John Wayne did what you or Reasr or Chester or Stumpy or Jay or Smokey or In Harms way or Chili Bill or Mrs C or A Girl Named Jen or Ringo , forgive me members but you all know what I am saying here and 1000 names is a lot of two finger typing and will not improve my suggestion so I will quote Yull Brynner in his role in the king and I-- ETC ETC ETC , would have done ( or its equivalent). Marion Michael Morrison stood up and reflected and decided. Then Duke charged poopy and like a icbm struck the man in the chest with a kick that sent him tumbling. I think that Duke would have no doubt in his mind at that point as to the risk this represented in terms of his career, not only with poopy but also in the film industry over all. Ford was weak in many ways but not stupid and he realized Dukes potential and the rest is history. Now I can't say that because I have morrison relatives that there is any tangible connection between me and John Wayne, but I will say this, nobody ever kicked one of my relatives without having cause to regret it. Long live the fans of the Duke. Kilo

Hi Kilo,
Thank you for bringing this thread up to date, I didn't find it before. But I still love Ford, in spite of that he was wrong sometimes maybe. I have strong opinion that there are professions in wich person must be dictator to succeed, such as movies directing or conducting symphony orchestra.
Regards,
Senta

Hello All
Hi Senta ,I feel Fords legacy is two fold; his brilliance in directing and the residual pain of his directing style in so far as it impacted on the actors who suffered it. It's possible that Ford's style was the only way he could get the job done. I am not qualified to estimate the number of Directors who use a style similar to Ford, but of the hundreds that I have observed working on sets here in BC I can assure you that only one exhibited the rancour that different sources have attributed to Ford and that was once in a weeks shooting. Of course we are talking about two periods of industry that are decades apart. I think that even in his day ford was seen as productive but not without baggage. Kilo :wacko:

This isn't completely on topic, but last winter I got a book called John Ford and the American West as a Christmas present. It's a big hardcover book with some of the most gorgeous pictures of Monument Valley I've ever seen. As well, it gives good information about John Ford's career as a director of silent movies through his career with the Duke.

As for JW and John Ford, one of my favorite stories was already mentioned. On the Alamo dvd, Ruddie Robbins( It Do) talks about how Ford just showed up on set and started to direct the movie. JW had Ford go out with Robbins and some stunt men and filmed a lot of second-unit footage. As Robbins puts it, he expected to be the star of the movie because he was in all this footage, but unfortunately it would not be so.

I've read that Ford did film the death scene of Ruddie Robbins and Chuck Roberson in the Alamo. "Do this mean what I think it do?" "It do." You gotta love that face Robbins makes at the Mexican soldier.

Originally posted by Senta@Oct 16 2005, 01:50 PM
I have strong opinion that there are professions in wich person must be dictator to succeed, such as movies directing or conducting symphony orchestra.
Regards,
Senta
22149

I feel that dictators in these fields are non-existant now, which can be either fortunate or unfortunate, depending on your viewpoint. In the field of orchestral conducting, we no longer have a Toscanini, a Reiner, a Szell or a Mravinsky at the helms. But we also don't have the performances for the ages, either.
Cheers - Jay -_-

Originally posted by Jay J. Foraker@Oct 17 2005, 08:14 PM
I feel that dictators in these fields are non-existant now, which can be either fortunate or unfortunate, depending on your viewpoint.* In the field of orchestral conducting, we no longer have a Toscanini, a Reiner, a Szell or a Mravinsky at the helms.* But we also don't have the performances for the ages, either.
Cheers - Jay* -_-
22226


Hi Jay,
I'm sure that you are not right. Mravinsky is no longer here (I was happy to hear him in concert in his last years, because he was a chief of our Philharmonic Orchestra for 50 years), but now we have Temirkanov. And he is dictator (not as Ford, but...) He is very-very interesting person and deep, but it is very difficult sometimes to contact with him. And he is great conductor!
By the way Gergiev - the chief of Mariinsky theatre is dictator too.
Regards,
Vera

Hi Vera - I know of both conductors (Temirkanov and Gergiev) from their recordings and articles and reviews in the musical press, but am not familiar with their ways with orchestras. Here in the U.S., the unions have pretty much emasculated the power present-day maestros have. For instance, much red tape is involved if a music director wants to dismiss a player from his orchestra. I imagine that conductors in Russia have more leeway with their orchestras than ours do here.
Cheers - Jay ^_^

Originally posted by Jay J. Foraker@Oct 18 2005, 01:13 AM
Hi Vera - I know of both conductors (Temirkanov and Gergiev) from their recordings and articles and reviews in the musical press, but am not familiar with their ways with orchestras.* Here in the U.S., the unions have pretty much emasculated the power present-day maestros have.* For instance, much red tape is involved if a music director wants to dismiss a player from his orchestra.* I imagine that conductors in Russia have more leeway with their orchestras than ours do here.
Cheers - Jay ^_^
22231


Hi Jay,
I knew both conductors too, many times heard them on concert and in the theatre for many years (about 20), and even can say that know Temirkanov personally a little. With Gergiev we met few times when I worked for Mariinsky and do some journalistic job. I think that dictation mainly is seen not when the conductor can dismiss somebody from the orchestra (I think they can here) but in the relationship during rehearsals and in other time. When conductor is every time polite, calm, but orchestra feel some fear when something is wrong for instance. And when I read about Ford (when he even didn't speak with some person he blamed for something and didn't forgive them for years - didn't speak and so on) I thought about Temirkanov (he is very much the same sometimes, and it is impossible to explain).
Both conductors work in USA big part of thir time.

Hi Vera -
Ford was one of those people who had a warped psyche where he could go off with no warning, but because he was so gifted as a director, his group of actors and crew tended to stay with him in spite of his aberrant behavior.
Both Temirkanov and Gergiev are lauded over here as well. Whether or not that they wield a steel baton, their recordings are well regarded in the Americas. I'm not too familiar with Gergiev's output (I have a couple of CDs of his performances), but Temirkanov made a couple of recordings two or three decades ago that have stood the test of time. One is a recording of Rachmaninoff's Second Symphony (uncut, which just about everyone does now) for EMI and another is a recording of excerpts of Khachaturian's "Gayne" ballet, both of which I have in my rather extensive library. Unfortunately, I haven't heard anything recently recorded by him (though I should make an effort to turn up a few).
Unfortunately, too, neither has ventured into our neck of the woods to do a concert. I did get to attend a concert involving Vladimir Ashkenazy conducting the Royal Philharmonic when they came on tour - noteworthy for a searing Sibelius Fifth Symphony that remains etched in my memory.
Cheers - Jay :D

Originally posted by Jay J. Foraker@Oct 18 2005, 11:07 PM
Hi Vera -
Ford was one of those people who had a warped psyche where he could go off with no warning, but because he was so gifted as a director, his group of actors and crew tended to stay with him in spite of his aberrant behavior.
Both Temirkanov and Gergiev are lauded over here as well.* Whether or not that they wield a steel baton, their recordings are well regarded in the Americas.* I'm not too familiar with Gergiev's output (I have a couple of CDs of his performances),* but Temirkanov made a couple of recordings two or three decades ago that have stood the test of time.* One is a recording of Rachmaninoff's Second Symphony (uncut, which just about everyone does now) for EMI and another is a recording of excerpts of Khachaturian's "Gayne" ballet, both of which I have in my rather extensive library.* Unfortunately, I haven't heard anything recently recorded by him (though I should make an effort to turn up a few).
Unfortunately, too, neither has ventured into our neck of the woods to do a concert.* I did get to attend a concert involving Vladimir Ashkenazy conducting the Royal Philharmonic when they came on tour - noteworthy for a searing Sibelius Fifth Symphony that remains etched in my memory.
Cheers - Jay* :D
22265

Hi Jay,
The recording of Rachmaninoff 2 and "Gayane" I too have in my collection. At recent years they didn't record too much (they do there recordings now only for foreign companyes) but I saw that they recorded Mahler 3, that I certainly must have, because it is my favorite composer. It is fanny but most of their recordings are not available here, so it is easier way to order from Amazon, when to find here. I remember that their second conductor Nicolay Alexeev asked once me for recordings od Stravinsky ballets done by Temirkanov. Old Mravinsky recordings was published here, so if you want, I can send you some of his recordings.
All the best,
Vera

Originally posted by Senta@Oct 18 2005, 03:27 PM
...I saw that they recorded Mahler 3, that I certainly must have, because it is my favorite composer.*
22266

Ahh, a fellow Mahlerite - you're a girl after my own heart! Looking back, it seems strange that fifty years ago or so, it was extremely difficult to find a recording of a Mahler symphony. Then Bernstein took up the standard and the rest is history. Currently,I think there are few conductors of note who have not tried to record his symphonies. The Sixth and Seventh Symphonies are my favorites.
Cheers - Jay :D

Originally posted by Jay J. Foraker@Oct 18 2005, 11:58 PM
Ahh, a fellow Mahlerite - you're a girl after my own heart!* Looking back, it seems strange that fifty years ago or so, it was extremely difficult to find a recording of a Mahler symphony.* Then Bernstein took up the standard and the rest is history.* Currently,I* think there are few conductors of note who have not tried to record his symphonies.* The Sixth and Seventh Symphonies are my favorites.
Cheers - Jay* :D
22268


Hi Jay,
It is great to find Mahler fan here. I do remember times when Mahler recordings were rare and I waited for every new of them (in that times there was no CD, only vinyl disks, and it was no possibility to order recordings from abroad) But in St.Petersburg we were lucky, because Mahler simphonies was in the program every season (it is a tradition here in St Petersburg Philharmonic), they in 1985 even have performed all Mahler simphonies exept 8, it came to stage a few years later. But this simphony is very difficult to perform. Here it was in concert only twice - last year Gergiev conducted it for the second time in St.Petersburg (I attended both performances and was greatly impressed). Another great impression I keep from the Abbado performance of 9th. It was great and torching, standing ovation after the concert. After I knew - he was seriously ill. For a pity the prices for the concerts go up each season. But for the last season I had a pass for all rehearsals.
With kind regards,
Vera

Vera - you are so fortunate! I think the closest any performance of Mahler's Eighth came to San Antonio was in Dallas. The forces required, especially in the choral department and vocal soloists (off the top of my head I can't remember whether there are eight or ten soloists - I'm getting older, folks! :wacko: ), for a performance cost-wise are so prohibitive that only the major orchestras are likely to stage this work. I imagine that was a wonderful experience.
Rehearsals are enjoyable and informative. In my capacity as music reviewer (I don't like the word critic) for my newspaper, I could probably attend any rehearsal of our San Antonio Symphony that I wanted - I just don't have the time!
Cheers - Jay :D

Originally posted by Jay J. Foraker@Oct 19 2005, 06:38 PM
Vera - you are so fortunate!* I think the closest any performance of Mahler's Eighth came to San Antonio was in Dallas.* The forces required, especially in the choral department and vocal soloists (off the top of my head I can't remember whether there are eight or ten soloists - I'm getting older, folks! :wacko: ), for a performance cost-wise are so prohibitive that only the major orchestras are likely to stage this work.* I imagine that was a wonderful experience.
Rehearsals are enjoyable and informative.* In my capacity as music reviewer (I don't like the word critic) for my newspaper, I could probably attend any rehearsal of our San Antonio Symphony that I wanted - I just don't have the time!
Cheers - Jay :D
22278


Hi Jay,
Don't have the impression that I attend all rehearsals - only by Temirkanov, because I'm deeply interested in his work and personality and from the rehearsals you can learn much-much more. And of course it is a great pleasure to me to have such an oppotunity. Some years ago I also write music reviews and complete and edited a couple of booklets for Philharmony and Mariinsky. Also have done my own project - the book about Temirkanov to his 60th bithday. It was not actually written by me - it was many tributes from people who worked with him and still working - but I completed it all and write the opening article.
Now I'm not writing musical reviews any more - only enjoy music.
With kind wishes,
Vera

That is the basic thing - enjoy the music. Though I'm not a musician, my love of music has brought me many rewards. Just as your experiences with writing and knowing or meeting these personages must have given you a sense of accomplishment. I think that is wonderful.
Cheers - Jay :D

Hi Jay,
I'm not a musician too. But that work brought to me very much - experience in music and meeting with interesting people - you are absolutely rigth. I'm glad that we have so much in common.
Regards,
Vera

Like the rest of you I love great music and like to enjoy it often. The Great Conductors that you all are talking about are very much like the Great Film Directors like John Ford and must have Complete Control of the work that they are doing at that time. But some like Ford sometime become very Cruel and Over-Bearing with some of there stars like Duke and Maureen O'Hara, :uhuh: but the stars like Duke and Maureen would put up with it because they respected him as a Great Director, painting a picture. :artist:

I do know that in the late 1940s when they were making "Fort Apache, Yellow Ribbon and Rio Grande" and as just Young Kids as Extras we tried to stay as far away from Ford as we could. This was just after W.W. 2 and we thought of him as another Adolf Hitler!!! :fear2:

I also think Duke put up with Ford because he thought of him as his Second Father, and after all John Ford did make Duke the "Biggest Star" of them all! :rolleyes: I think this is the same with all Great Conductors like you were talking about. :angry:

This Site will tell you a little about what Duke thought about John Ford or "Pappy" as Duke called him! DEATH OF JOHN FORD (http://www.wyntoontrip.com/PATSTACY3.html)

Chilibill :cowboy:

Hi Bill,
You comments are very interesting as always. I have Pat Stacy book, and enjoyed the photos at your site.
Regards,
Vera