taking the liberty of moving Jen's question about Wake of the Red Witch (in the topic Definite list of JW Books) to this new post - we might want to discuss it here further. Interesting film, doesn't get quite the attention it deserves.

My question is this:
Just now I could purchase an original 35mm copy of the film - yet it's the 95-min-version which was released some years after the original release. Have never seen the short version and don't know what I would be missing - anybody knows?

Oh, sorry Roland - I didn't realize we were strict about that stuff here. Dukefan said that the book explained the relationship between Ralls & Sydney so I was only asking if you guys could talk about it with me.

So should I actually move my post over here? Here's the pertinent bit:

Re: Ralls & Sydney in The Wake of the Red Witch. Could you (or anyone else for that matter) explain it to me a little bit? Sydney seemed like a complete wacko creep to me - one second he wants Ralls dead and the next he's practically in tears because he thinks Ralls IS dead. He seemed sort of effeminate and gay to me too (here we go again! sorry!) which made me wonder if his feelings for Ralls were a bit confused...

Not gay at all. Sydney had a reason for living himself (rememeber Angelic is dead) as long as Ralls is alive. Sydney was a twisted man who was bent on making Ralls suffer. After Ralls dies, the drive and opportunity for revenge is gone. Sydney also repects Ralls as a real man and thinks he makes life worth living.

Okay, thanks Araner - that clears things up some. I think the movie tried to explain it that way; Sydney says something about wanting Ralls to die his way and how no one else could possibly understand the way he feels about Ralls. I guess I didn't find it fully convincing, but then movies can't always take the time to explain inner motivations the way a book can.

I would agree that this tycoon character just liked a good enemy who's able to face him toe to toe. Come to think of it, most hero/enemy "relationships" are more salty and interesting if they actually like or rather: respect each other. Like the Yul Brynner/Eli Wallach relationsship in Magnificent Seven, or some of the Randolph Scott westerns directed by Boetticher: the hero and his enemy even take a liking to each other yet they know in the end, there has to be a gunfight. Another good example are the Anthony Mann/Jimmy Stewart westerns of the Fifties: In Bend of the River, The Far Country, Naked Spur and The Man from Laramie, the hero actually befriends the man he has to kill (of course that doesn't make either man gay).

Oh Jen, didn't mean to sound so strict about the topic but I was hoping to get a list of books there, and you know how it is with these topics: once you change course, they just wander off and never return to the original subject at hand.

True enough about enemies respecting each other and that making things more interesting. There was just something about Sydney that made me pick up on a potential "gay subtext"! Maybe I'm hypersensitive to them now after that business with Red River. ;)

I understand you perfectly about the topics not wandering. It's good to have someone help keep us in line. :headbonk:

Hi Robbie
Picked up your post about not seeing 'Wake of the Red Witch' but I didn't want to intrude in that post so like the man says I have started this one.

The film was based on Garland Roark's novel which I haven't read so I'm not sure how faithful each is to the other.

I think the film is one of his best non western films and remains one of my favourites. The film was Republic Studios answer to De Milles 1942 'Reap the Wild Wind' and as you know in both films he dies from a diving accident. He also makes an unusual entrance in that in one scene he is seen floating tied to a cross in the middle of the Pacific - not a bad entrance.

In the film his performance is as a cold very harsh sea captain, a person who is willing to double cross and push aside anyone who stands in his way, a role perhaps similar to Thomas Dunson and Ethan Edwards in 'Red River' and 'The Searchers' and I think almost as good. He also draws good support from Luther Adler who plays an equally cold and calculating villain content to bide his time in order to take his revenge, Paul Fix and Gig Young. Also seen as a native is Henry Brandon who would later play Scar.

If you watch Gail Russell as an actress and ignore anything else other than she was an actress, she also gives a fine performance.

I firmly believe that it was roles such as Dunson and Captain Rawls that fashioned Ethan Edwards seven years later.

If you get the chance to see it I think you might enjoy it.

Regards

Arthur

I totally agree - one of JW's darkest performances. Something that was mentioned in another post about The Conqueror - Wayne "being harsh" to women - would certainly being echoed in the very tense moment where a disillusioned, drunk Captain Ralls (JW) confronts Gail Russell and in a rage almost murders her before he comes to his senses.

BTW, the original model of the "Red Witch" of the title, the ghost ship that was lying on the ground of the ocean waiting for Ralls, is hanging from the ceiling of a Planet Hollywood - I think I saw it in the Paris one (sometimes it's hard to remember, they all look so very much alike!).

Try and refresh your memory if you can, Roland. I'm going to Paris this summer and that seems like a good excuse to stop by the Planet Hollywood.

Any other JW stuff there? Le roi des cow-boys americains?

Hi Jen nice to see you coming over to Europe why not drop into the old Country
England may the North East nice places around here
Chance :stunned:

Hi Jen!
It's right at the Champs-Ellisée, near the Arc de Triomphe - so you gonna go there anyway!! :lol: What's a visit Paris withouth the Arc de Triomphe. But really - I can't recall. What I do recall is that the Musée de Cinema - and that's at the Trocadero, next to the Eiffel Tower (so you gotta go there anyway!) - has Ringo's hat from Stagecoach (along with Chaplins duds and Keaton's hat, great stuff).

Ringo's hat? Roland, I am SO there. Thanks!

Chance, we have a layover at London Gatwick for an hour or so, but that's about as much time as I'll spend on Old Blighty this time. Maybe someday. I certainly appreciate the warm welcome just the same.

What a shame Jen would have made you a nice pot of tea oh well!
Chance :stunned:

Hi Jen
if you like location-hunting as much as I do, I'll point some more out for you -
non-John Wayne-films, unfortunately.

Thanks Author

I have heard that this is a great movie boasting one of Dukes best performances I look forward to seeing it, but I'm saving this movie for a year or two.

Roland may be going to Paris later on in the year myself any more trivia would be great.

:agent:

OK, we'll always have Paris.

Ringo's hat is at the Musée de Cinema, located at the theatre at Trocadero place. It shows the history of cinema, the old cameras, the development of technique, etc. Don't expect too many costumes. Next to Ringo's, they have stuff from DeMille's The Plainsman. There's a tour through the museum, however if you just ask to take a peek at the hat, they'll probably let you through.

Disneyland Paris is a treat. The opened a new section, a Hollywoodland, but nothing John Wayne except for some behind the scenes photos (which they managed to put the wrong titles to them).

CHARADE Cary Grant/Audrey Hepburn: The place right below the Notre-Dame is where Audrey spills her icecream on Cary. The big shootout with Walter Matthau was filmed at the Palais Royal (a few steps from the Louvre) and was just recently used as a location with Jack Nicholson's "Something's Gotta Give".

THE GREAT RACE: Professor Fate has to drive down the steps of Montmartre. This was also the location for the French action-comedy with Jean-Paul Belmondo and Raquel Welch (of which I don't know the English title). The Great Race's conclusion comes at the Eiffel-Tower, where Tony Curtis, Jack Lemmon, Peter Falk and Natalie Wood all were present.

JAMES BOND'S A VIEW TO A KILL featured a daring jump from the Eiffel-Tower and Roger Moore chasing Grace Jones up the tower. Disney's CONDORMAN also had a jump off the tower. SUPERMAN II also has an action scene filmed at the Tower.

FRANTIC, by Roman Polanski: The final shootout with Harrison Ford was filmed at the little Statue of Liberty along the Seine. Hard to describe where (there's nothing else to see there, so it's not really a tourist attraction) but it's on all the maps.

AMELIE, that huge French success, was filmed in the Montmartre section. Hordes of Japanese tourists come to Paris just to see where "Amelie" was living. See that film in advance, you'll love it.

RONIN, the first and last scenes with Jean Reno and Robert DeNiro, where filmed at one of the big stairs leading up to Montmartre.

PARIS WHEN IT SIZZLES the last scene when William Holden burns his script and follows Audrey Hepburn, that's on the Trocadero, in fact about where you exit the Musee de Cinema.

PARIS IS IT BURNING? Where Yves Montant gets shot in the back, that's at the Place de la Concorde, right down the Champs-Ellysee.

The CASABLANCA scenes of Paris where shot at the Warner backlot :dead:

Thanks, Roland. I've seen many of the films you mention and I should be able to find time to check at least some of those locations out. Quite frankly I'm surprised there's anything of John Wayne to be found in Paris. I don't think of the denizens of that fair country being particularly enamored of someone like Duke. ;-)

It's funny what you say about EuroDisney attaching the wrong titles to JW's pictures. I've not been there before, but at other tourist sites in France I often found myself giggling at their stilted and often ungrammatical attempts at English. It seems only fair. Not that my French is le top du top...

Chance, I'll just have to catch you on the flipflop. There'll be other trips someday! :)

One thing I forgot to mention but there isn't really much to see from the outside:
John Wayne actually worked in Paris - at the Studios de Bologne where all interior sets were built for THE LONGEST DAY. It's a TV production studio today. You'll find it on the map. I sent them a letter inquiring about things left from that production but no answer yet.

Oh yeah, the thing about EuroDisney is: it's not the French that would have put the wrong titles under the picture (identifying a picture from El Dorado as Rio Bravo, that sort of thing) but the Americans. They're in charge. At least until Disney gets sold.

Good ol' Disney. I'm not surprised. <_<

Wake of the Red Witch, as you were describing the entrance he made in the movie it jogged my memory, well maybe I might still be confusing this with another movie. But if I remember right him amd another guy had purposely sunk a ship he was the Captain of and it was full of Gold Bullion, is this the Red Witch movie?
If so it is pretty good.

Hi Bandit,
Yes thats right John Wayner elieves the first mate of his comand by making him believe he is incompetent, appoints Gig Young as the replacement takes the ship off course and sinks it on a reef.

It shouldn't be confused with DeMilles 1942 colour version Reap the Wild Wind which also deals with a wrecked ship. In both John Wayne has to dive on the wreck and in both he gets killed.

Incidently in the 1942 picture the action with the squid was a complete afterthought by the scriptwriters thought up on the spur of the moment because DeMille was pressing them for an ending to the film and knew that they didn't have one.

Regards

Arthur

A couple days ago, I "revisited" the Red Witch. In my mind, this always was like a second-rate "Reap the Wild Wind", you know: no Technicolor, no Max Steiner. Basically, no C.B. DeMille grandeur. A minor film just sandwiched between classics like Fort Apache and Iwo Jima, and therefore easily overlooked.

When I watched it again, I noticed (for the first time, I admit, even though I must have seen it 6 times) the similarities to the Film Noir which was very much en vogue right then. In 1948, Burt Lancaster had made three of them in a row, he was the hottest thing in town. The winning team of Bogart/Bacall and Hawks made the classic The Big Sleep. Even John Ford took a shot at this visual style (inspired by German Expressionism) in the year before, with The Fugitive. Almost every studio was churning out crime stories in the film noir style. Now Red Witch struck me as a try to transport the usual Noir-setting to the South Seas, and quite successful at that. For the first time, the lack of Technicolor for such a colorful setting made sense (even Republic filmed a lot of their features in color then, in their own True Color process). So you have the stark shadows and low lights, the saloons full of cigar smoke, typical for this genre.

Then, the plot: the two typical forms of the Film noir: 1. flashback and 2.: narration. Red Witch makes use of them both.

Then, the tragic anti-hero: One of Wayne's first shots at such a dark character. The usual character in a crime drama, like the ones inspired by Raymond Chandler, usually tries to forget a dame, drinking lots of booze. Excactly: Captain Ralls. We don't get to hear his first name - another film noir cliché.
Also typical for the film noir which was in full swing during depressing war times: the hero dies, he isn't capable of changing his life and looses it in the effort although we had some brief moments to recognize he isn't such a bad egg. Besides, everybody else is a crook, too!

So: where does the bloody squint fit into my theory?

Hi Roland

Very interesting topic.

Like you I always considered Wake of the Red Witch to be a second rate cousin to De Mille's Reap The Wild Wind and as a kid of nine or ten sitting in the local flea pit on a wednesday afternoon I wouldn't have understood what film noir meant if it had come up and hit me round the head. All I knew was that it was a rollicking good yarn that is, and I am sure that everyone on this board knows by now, one of my favourite John Wayne pictures.

And here I must also admit to what may be a surprise, it is only by reading Fred's book five minutes ago that I understand that the Wake in the title meant, namely, the gathering of all beligerants on the island for a wake ala the irish. We learn a little more each day. Perhaps it should have been obvious but I have never had that much of an inquiring mind, however....

Looking at the film I agree as with Two Years Before The Mast, and[ b]Wake of the Red Witch[/b] had to be in black and white to fully appreciate the sharpness of the film.

Looking at the casting. For the life of me I cannot see Burt Lancaster in the part of Ralls he'd be all teeth and swinging off of the rigging. I can however picture Humphrey Bogart in the Wayne character his stance facial expression manner of speech would fit in, albeit possibly a slightly meaner ships captain. I can visulise him standing on the quarterdeck of the Red Witch making two men knock seven bells out of each other, and I can easily see him treatng Mr Loring in an even worse manner than Wayne did in the picture.

Another actor I can just about visualise playing Ralls is George Raft but after that I would struggle.

With regard to the rest of the cast Gig Young and Paul Fix are great. In the supporting role of Teleia, possibly a young ]an Sterling or,Angela Lansbury or even the late Virginia Mayo.

By the same token I could not see Lauren Bacall playing the Gail Russell part of Angelique, only Gail Russell would be suitable, I think Wayne and Russell were a magnificent pairing at a time when he could not afford to be seen with her, and i think if circumstances had been different they would have been equally as good as Duke and Maureen O'Hara would later be.

Luther Adler plays a superb villain cold calculating, ruthlessly plotting, scheming andwaiting all of those years to get his revenge.

Of the Ralls character, Wayne plays him with a dark side as we have all agreed that heralds Ethan Edwards but there is also a side of Duke that is rarely seen in the Edwards character and I think that is a quiizzical, self humour that Wayne could play to perfection, a humour generated by the fact that knowledge is power and his knowledge of the whereabouts of five million dollars worth of gold bullion, makes him powerful indeed, to the point that although trapped by Sidney[ and secure in the knowledge that ultimately it would be his adversary's intention to kill him, Ralls tends to mock his captive, and by not turning up to dinner, allows Sidney to tell Sam his side of the story, colouring it to suit him and show Ralls at his worst. Both Wayne and Adler indulge in a cat and mouse game where both take turns to play the cat.

I think it is in the smal cameo scene between Ralls and Captain Munsey(Dennis Hoey), that is important. Wayne has just been released from the court after sinking the Red Witch and Munsey joins him for a drink. The one is sailing as close to the law as he can possibly get and in this instance has crossed over, and Munsey know this. The other as a captain and upholder of the law of the sea, also knows that one day he will probably take Ralls, as Ralls is also aware, but in having a drink together, both show a mutal respect one for the other, and at the death it is Muncey who Ralls will rely on to save him from Sidney, and it is Muncey that Ralls has arranged that at the climax, will arrive at St George's Channel, when he is about to dive on the Witch.

As to the film, the identification of the noir with the flashback and the narration, the narration I have no problem with, and equally if it had started with the pages of the book ala Red River I can handle that, as a kid I detested flashbacks as I thought that they broke up the picture and Wake of the Red Witch has two, but I still think for all that it is a great picture.

I haven't read]Garland Roark's book so I have no real idea how religiously the script sticks to it, but even allowing for the fact that Wayne was an excellent swimmer and bearing in mind that we compared the two films, I cannot believe that Republic would put in an octopus because on a sunny afternoon in Hollywood seven years befor, Paramount introduced a squid.

If the book however fails to mention an octopus, perhaps Republic had one laying about and thought what the hell.

Regards

Arthur

Arther and Roland

Two very interesting posts, I have heard very little about this movie but from what I have heard it sounds very interesting. I like seeing Duke play characters with a mean and dark side and I know he like playing them, I think thats why a lot of people can relate to the duke in many of his movies he was far from perfect but there was also something good in him and that is how we as human beings are. The Gary Cooper character is wathable but not always interesting because they don't have a dark side on the other hand I dont tend to go for characters that are completly bad either as that is vert one dimensional.

Thanks again for bringing this movie to our attention and I am certainly looking forward to seeing it.

:agent:

Arthur, the squid (I should learn how to spell that word :P ) was already in Garland's original novel.

Another thing that came to mind and helps to cement my film-noir-theory: it's all about stolen money which, eventually, nobody gets - another noir-cliche.

The only other film Wayne made inside that genre would be Big Jim McLain, although I think it doesn't qualify as a film noir (it picks up the usual photography style though) because the main character - Wayne - is flawless.

Hey, almost 100 people viewed this topic, and nobody else comments?

Hi Roland

Two interesting points the fact that no-body comented on the thread salave.

I should imagine on the theme of lost money never being recovered the best film noir picture would be Bogart and Huston in the Treasure of the Sierra Madre.

Although I must admit to never having seen it.

Regards

Arthur

I have always enjoyed The Wake Of The Red Witch, but never thought of it as a film noir. Very interesting take. I'll have to watch it again (it's been some time since I last saw it) with that in mind.

Thanks Roland and Arther for your comments on Red Witch.

It genuinely sounds like a superior movie but my question is is it really an overlooked classic or simply an average or good movie with some decent themes.

:agent:

If you'd just go ahead and WATCH it we could discuss it! :lol:
The squid looks like a left-over from an Ed Wood film but you'll sure be pleased with the overall picture.

Very funny Roland :D but I'm saving this movie along with 'In Harms Way', 'They were Expendable' and 'TMWSLV' for a later date as I don't want to see all Dukes movies at once.

:agent:

Don't watch them ALL at once - just watch the one. Jesus, what is THMLTPSX?

Originally posted by itdo@Jan 27 2005, 10:13 AM
Don't watch them ALL at once - just watch the one. Jesus, what is THMLTPSX?
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TMWSLV= The man who shot Liberty Valance. As a compromise Roland I am going to watch Reap the Wild wind very soon then we can review it.

:agent:

OK, now I'm sold on Red Witch - especially since it's only $7.95 from DigitalEyes.net.

I've never seen it, but it sounds fairly interesting.

I wanted to bring this thread to the top again since I watched "The Wake of the Red Witch" today. I am glad I read this thread before I watched it since I felt that Itdo and Arthur's comments helped me to appreciate the film more. I have to say I like both this one and "Reap the Wild Wind" a lot.

Regards
Popol Vuh

Originally posted by Popol Vuh@Aug 8 2005, 12:13 PM
I wanted to bring this thread to the top again since I watched "The Wake of the Red Witch" today. I am glad I read this thread before I watched it since I felt that Itdo and Arthur's comments helped me to appreciate the film more. I have to say I* like both this one and "Reap the Wild Wind" a lot.

Regards
Popol Vuh
20095



I picked this up a while back, and it is a really good movie. I may have to check out Reap the Wild Wind before too long...

Originally posted by itdo+Jan 19 2005, 01:51 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(itdo @ Jan 19 2005, 01:51 PM)</div>When I watched it again, I noticed (for the first time, I admit, even though I must have seen it 6 times) the similarities to the Film Noir which was very much en vogue right then.
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[/b]

Originally posted by itdo@Jan 24 2005, 10:40 AM
The only other film Wayne made inside that genre would be Big Jim McLain, although I think it doesn't qualify as a film noir (it picks up the usual photography style though) because the main character - Wayne - is flawless.
13953


itdo is correct in saying that the only two films John Wayne made that approach the style of Film Noir are Wake of the Red Witch and Big Jim McLain (although neither is pure Noir, both are close). Interestingly, both were directed by Edward Ludwig, who had directed the Duke earlier in The Fighting Seabees.

<!--QuoteBegin-itdo@Jan 19 2005, 01:51 PM
For the first time, the lack of Technicolor for such a colorful setting made sense (even Republic filmed a lot of their features in color then, in their own True Color process).
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Well, this is a little off-topic, but the only Republic film Duke made in color was his last for the studio, The Quiet Man. And that was shot in Technicolor at the insistence of the director, John Ford. Considering the fact that Duke was Republic's top leading man and biggest box office draw, it's interesting that his home studio always put him in Black and White. But it's probably just as well, considering the poor quality of Republic's Truecolor process.

I never thought of Wake of the Red Witch as Film Noir, a very interesting tread.

Wake seems to have been a very meaningful picture to Duke. He named his production company Batjac after the Batjak company in the movie. (The difference in spelling was a typo.)

Duke referred to his cancer as the Red Witch. Reemerging when he thougt it licked.

Hi,
I fail see how WAKE falls into the 'film noir'
category.
Film noir, literally means 'Black film,and cinema', and
was first used as a term by Frank Nino in 1946,
who noticed, how 'Dark, and 'Black. American crime
and detective films,such as The Public Enemy, Scarface etc were.
WAKE, is just a nice interesting film to watch,
and it's twin of course, REAP THE WILD WIND
Film noir, never!!

ethanedwards,

According to:

http://www.filmsite.org/filmnoir.html

"Film Noir (literally 'black film or cinema') was coined by French film critics (first by Frank Nino in 1946) who noticed the trend of how 'dark' and black the looks and themes were of many American crime and detective films released in France following the war. It was a style of black and white American films that first evolved in the 1940s, became prominent in the post-war era, and lasted in a classic "Golden Age" period until about 1960 (marked by Orson Welles' Touch of Evil (1958)). Strictly speaking, however, film noir is not a genre, but rather the mood, style, point-of-view, or tone of a film."

"The primary moods of classic film noir were melancholy, alienation, bleakness, disillusionment, disenchantment, pessimism, ambiguity, moral corruption, evil, guilt, desperation and paranoia. Heroes (or anti-heroes), corrupt characters and villains included down-and-out, conflicted hard-boiled detectives or private eyes, cops, gangsters, government agents, socio-paths, crooks, war veterans, petty criminals, and murderers. These protagonists were often morally-ambiguous low-lifes from the dark and gloomy underworld of violent crime and corruption. Distinctively, they were cynical, tarnished, obsessive (sexual or otherwise), brooding, menacing, sinister, sardonic, disillusioned, frightened and insecure loners (usually men), struggling to survive - and in the end, ultimately losing.

The females in film noir were either of two types (or archetypes) - dutiful, reliable, trustworthy and loving women; or femme fatales - mysterious, duplicitous, double-crossing, gorgeous, unloving, predatory, tough-sweet, unreliable, irresponsible, manipulative and desperate women. Usually, the male protagonist in film noir wished to elude his mysterious past, and had to choose what path to take (or have the fateful choice made for him).

Invariably, the choice would be an overly ambitious one, to follow the dangerous but desirable wishes of these dames. It would be to follow the goadings of a traitorous, self-destructive femme fatale who would lead the struggling, disillusioned, and doomed hero into committing murder or some other crime of passion coupled with twisted love. When the major character was a detective or private eye, he would become embroiled and trapped in an increasingly-complex, convoluted case that would lead to fatalistic, suffocating evidences of corruption, irresistible love and death. The femme fatale, who had also transgressed societal norms with her independent and smart, menacing actions, would bring both of them to a downfall.

Film noir films (mostly shot in gloomy grays, blacks and whites) showed the dark and inhumane side of human nature with cynicism and doomed love, and they emphasized the brutal, unhealthy, seamy, shadowy, dark and sadistic sides of the human experience. An oppressive atmosphere of menace, pessimism, anxiety, suspicion that anything can go wrong, dingy realism, futility, fatalism, defeat and entrapment were stylized characteristics of film noir. The protagonists in film noir were normally driven by their past or by human weakness to repeat former mistakes.

Film noir was marked by expressionistic lighting, deep-focus camera work, disorienting visual schemes, jarring editing or juxtaposition of elements, skewed camera angles (usually vertical or diagonal rather than horizontal), circling cigarette smoke, existential sensibilities, and unbalanced compositions. Settings were often interiors with low-key lighting, venetian-blinded windows and rooms, and dark, claustrophobic, gloomy appearances. Exteriors were often urban night scenes with deep shadows, wet asphalt, dark alleyways, rain-slicked or mean streets, flashing neon lights, and low key lighting. Story locations were often in murky and dark streets, dimly-lit apartments and hotel rooms of big cities, or abandoned warehouses. [Often-times, war-time scarcities were the reason for the reduced budgets and shadowy, stark sets of B-pictures and film noirs.]

Narratives were frequently complex, maze-like and convoluted, and typically told with foreboding background music, flashbacks (or a series of flashbacks), witty, razor-sharp and acerbic dialogue, and/or reflective and confessional, first-person voice-over narration. Amnesia suffered by the protagonist was a common plot device, as was the downfall of an innocent Everyman who fell victim to temptation or was framed. Revelations regarding the hero were made to explain/justify the hero's own cynical perspective on life. Some of the most prominent directors of film noir included Orson Welles, John Huston, Billy Wilder, Edgar Ulmer, Robert Siodmak, Fritz Lang, Otto Preminger, and Howard Hawks.

Titles of many film noirs often reflect the nature or tone of the style and content itself: Dark Passage (1947), The Naked City (1948), Fear in the Night (1947), Out of the Past (1947), Kiss Me Deadly (1955), etc."


Now, as I said, Wake of the Red Witch is not quite pure 'film noir' but, it does use many of the characteristics listed above.

Hi ejgreen77,
That's the same site, that I got my information from,
but I sure wasn't going to quote it
live, stock and barrel,

Best Wishes,
ee

[/QUOTE]Hi Ethan and ejgreen 77

I think what we we were trying to establish with Wake of the Red Witch was that it wasn't simply a poor relation to Reap the Wild Wind but was able to stand out in its own right as a good film. Revisiting the film again it is very difficult to have the film match every aspect of the identity of the recognised film noir but with the definition of what film noir is, the films fits very closely to the accepted standards.

"The primary moods of classic film noir were melancholy, alienation, bleakness, disillusionment, disenchantment, pessimism, ambiguity, moral corruption, evil, guilt, desperation and paranoia.

Captain Ralls displays many of these attributes in the film certainly in his fits of melancholy or evil moods as is depicted in the film when he gets drunk he shows all the signs of disillusionment, disenchantment, evil and guilt. (even the films reviewer Bosley Crowther commented on Wayne's performance saying 'It is Wayne who carries the unusual film role of a sadistic hero' While the Los Angeles Examiner (Earl H Donovan) said '[/I]Wayne proves a good choice as a sadistic master'

During the film he shows moral corruption certainly, guilt yes and evil, shown by his treatment of Mr Loring and his part in the death of Angelique's father. He is ready to corrupt Gig Young, although there is no reluctance to be corrupted on Youngs part. Possibly the only things missing is Wayne's desperation, at all times he stays calm, or paranoia but no film can fit the definition down to every detail.

Distinctively, they were cynical, tarnished, obsessive (sexual or otherwise), brooding, menacing, sinister, sardonic, disillusioned, frightened and insecure loners (usually men), struggling to survive - and in the end, ultimately losing.

This description fits Ralls partially as a brooding menacing sinister certainly sardonic loner who ultimately loses his girl the gold and his life. At no time is he frightened or insecure nor does he struggle to survive but five out of seven isn't bad.

The females in film noir were either of two types (or archetypes) - dutiful, reliable, trustworthy and loving women;

This fits the Gail Russell part of Angelique to a tee.

[quote]Film noir films (mostly shot in gloomy grays, blacks and whites) showed the dark and inhumane side of human nature with cynicism and doomed love, and they emphasized the brutal, unhealthy, seamy, shadowy, dark and sadistic sides of the human experience. An oppressive atmosphere of menace, pessimism, anxiety, suspicion that anything can go wrong, dingy realism, futility, fatalism, defeat and entrapment were stylized characteristics of film noir. The protagonists in film noir were normally driven by their past or by human weakness to repeat former mistakes.


Isn't that what the story of the Wake of the Red Witch is about . Sidney waiting seven years to extract his revenge of Ralls, the doomed love of Ralls and Angelique, the feeling of menace and entrapment on the Island after Ralls has arrived.

Film noir was marked by expressionistic lighting, deep-focus camera work, disorienting visual schemes, jarring editing or juxtaposition of elements, skewed camera angles (usually vertical or diagonal rather than horizontal), circling cigarette smoke, existential sensibilities, and unbalanced compositions. Settings were often interiors with low-key lighting, venetian-blinded windows and rooms, and dark, claustrophobic, gloomy appearances. Exteriors were often urban night scenes with deep shadows, wet asphalt, dark alleyways, rain-slicked or mean streets, flashing neon lights, and low key lighting. Story locations were often in murky and dark streets, dimly-lit apartments and hotel rooms of big cities, or abandoned warehouses. [Often-times, war-time scarcities were the reason for the reduced budgets and shadowy, stark sets of B-pictures and film noirs.]

Obviously this is the weakest arguement for the Red Witch to be classified as a film noir but soley because 1870s Pacific Island can never represent New York or San Francisco in the 1940s but nevertheless the film is dark , many scenes take place at night in shadow i.e the destruction of Waynes yacht as it attempts to escape the island.

and finally:

Narratives were frequently complex, maze-like and convoluted, and typically told with foreboding background music, flashbacks (or a series of flashbacks), witty, razor-sharp and acerbic dialogue, and/or reflective and confessional, first-person voice-over narration. Amnesia suffered by the protagonist was a common plot device, as was the downfall of an innocent Everyman who fell victim to temptation or was framed. Revelations regarding the hero were made to explain/justify the hero's own cynical perspective on life.[quote]

The film is largely taken up with two major flashbacks. Ralls chasracter is certainly no innocent, and his temptation was cold blooded rather than being led into temptation but Young and Teleia both show the human side and the wit of Ralls.

If the Wake of The Red Witch is not classed as film noire in it truest sense then no film ever can be.


Regards

Arthur

Hi Keith,
Thank you for bringing me here - I was looking for this thread myself, but it always takes a lot of time to find the topic.
I have read all the great comments here, I must think about it. You prove your point of view about film noir - but for me seems that something is missing. The background is not like in film noir and the ending certainly not. I feel it romantic not noir.
Regards,
Senta
(my nickname is after opera noir character - if we follow major point of view about noir)