Hi.

We have had the best John Wayne pictures. The worst, the Best Cowboys and the Worst
I would like to start a new topic

Films you wish John Wayne Hadn't Made - r even films he didn't make but you wish he had.

In another posting I got on to the subject of minor actors in The Longest Day[I] in which numerous well known and not so well known faces are visible.

Making pen pictures of all the people who acted in John Wayne films I can honestly say that as good as his roles were in

'The Longest Day' 'The Greatest Story Ever Told' and 'How the West was Won'[I]

Fom a purely selfish point of view there is a cast list of about 117 people in the Longest Day most of whom like Richard Burton, Sean Connery, Harry Fowler and Norman Rossington were people that you wouldn't normally associate with John Wayne and that is only the Brits, add to that the German and French actors and it gets really complicated.

It probably approaching the same number in TGSET

And quite a large number in HTWWW

So in a controversial manner I can say that these were three films I wish John Wayne hadn't made.

Every time I watch DUEL IN THE SUN (and I confess, it's often) I imagine Wayne playing the part of Lewt McCanles - which eventually went to Gregory Peck. I think Wayne could have been terrific in this good boy/bad boy kind of part. Lusting for Jennifer Jones, breaking in the horse, wrecking the train and shooting poor old Charles Bickford, and then biting the dust full of bullet-holes in a final embrace - and all in Technicolor and with Tiomkin's music. What a part! They talked Wayne about it but for some reason or another that never came about.

I wish he never made The Cowboys. This was not a typical John Wayne movie, and being killed off in the picture somewhere just after the middle part, just didn't make Duke the star he really is. This is not John Wayne in his best, and somehow in my opinion belittled him. How can you imagine a person like Bruce Dern capable in size and ability could kill off Duke?

I did like the relationship he had with the boys, and the way he showed them how they had to be men, but ruined the picture with the killing.

Cheers, Hondo B)

Originally posted by Hondo Duke Lane@Jan 21 2004, 02:42 PM
How can you imagine a person like Bruce Dern capable in size and ability could kill off Duke?
The Cowboys is on my list of least liked JW movies for just the reason you mention. However, the first half of the movie was pretty darn good.

In response to your question about Bruce Dern, it was because his character was a sleazy :angry: , disgusting :angry: creep :angry: of a human being who would shoot someone in the back :angry: !

Another one I wish he'd never made was The Conqueror. It was just a bad movie, IMHO, and it was weird to see him with the "Oriental look". There are other JW movies with roles that are different than his usual ones that are pretty good, but The Conqueror wasn't one of them.

Chester :newyear:

Hondo, I agree about the Cowboys. Was never really all that enthused with that movie. In fact to this day I still do not own it.

I agree on the Conquerer, but for different reasons. Maybe if he had skipped it, he wouldn't have had all the cancer he had later in life, due to the radio-active dust used on the set. Could have maybe lived into the mid-to late 80s and been healthier, and maybe done 10 more films. Of course his smoking probably didn't help his health either.

GSP

:cowboy:

Hi Hondo,

As an amusing aside to the Cowboys

Bruce Dern's daughter Laura used to tell how whenever she went to college her fellow students would pick her out a say that her dad shot John Wayne in the back.
She said it took years for her to live it down.

Best regards

Arthur

Hi

With regard to 'The Conqueror'. Apparently it was originally written for Marlon Brando but at the last minute 20th Century Fox refused to lease him to RKO.

The script writer had originally made the script with Brando in mind and written in almost old english.

I thought that on a visit to a studio John Wayne had seen a small part of the script lying in a wastepaper bin and after reading it decided that he had to make the film. Other versions say that he picked it up off a desk.

Apparently with his ability to learn lines very quickly he didn't read the complete script until the night before shooting began and was horrified.

But when it came down to it was a western set in Mongolia rather than Arizona with Wayne playing Temajun rather than Stoney Brooke.

Of the location shooting 'John Wayne American' Quotes

* out of the 220 people Dick Powell brought to St George Utah, in 1954, 91* came down with cancer later in their lives...... Duke survived Lung cancer in 1964 but later succumbed to stomach cancer. Pedro Armendariz came down with Kidney cancer in 1959 and then committed suicide in 1963 when diagnosed with cancer of the larynx. Dick Powell fell victim to lung cancer, Agnes Moorhead would die of uterine cancer, and (Susan) Hayward ended up with cancers of the skin, breast, uterus, and brain.

It was also a contributary factor that most of the cancer victims were also heavy smokers.

Another small co-incidence especially in view of films John Wayne might have done. In 1953 the government exploded two bombs which were particularly harmful one went off on April 25 and the other on May 19th.

The name of the second bomb was 'Dirty Harry'
The name of a film that Duke was later offered and turned down, and later turned Clint Eastwood into a star.

However the bottom line says that although the critics lampooned it it was very popular with the public in general.

Regards

Arthur

Roland! Duke as Lewt McCanles? Wow!!! I confess I never thought of it. That role is such a combination of sexiness and smarminess... Duke is certainly capable of the former but I don't like to think of him doing the latter. He's just too big and rugged, I think. Gregory Peck has a taut, finely wrought kind of appeal that IMO translates better.

Unbelievably bad but fun movie, though.

To get back to the original topic, I guess I haven't seen enough of JW's films, because I can't think of any that I wish he hadn't made. Maybe some of the '70s cop films?

Jen,

That's a pretty good point about the '70's cop movies. I always thought that he made those films because of the highly successful movies Clint Eastwood made in the Dirty Harry series. By the way Duke turned them down because of the excess violence. When he or someone saw them, they thought maybe could make something like that in Brannigan and McQ. Though I don't think they are all that bad, they seem mimic the Dirty Harry style, and of course they failed.

But I will conceed that it probably was a mistake to go that route. <_<

Surely Jen you've seen a lot of his movies of the 30's, 40's, 50's and 60's? :rolleyes:

Cheers, Hondo B)

Arthur, thanks for letting us know that Marlon Brando had originally been considered for the lead in The Conqueror - too bad he didn't do it! :D

Gen, Mrs. Chester agrees with you regarding the Duke and his inability to be smarmy - sexy, yes, but smarmy - never!

Regarding the Yucca Mountains and Area 51 nuclear tests, that's over 100 miles from where they were filming, which is quite a ways for fallout to go. Most of it would likely fall in the first 20 or 30 miles, especially those smaller bombs. I think the smoking is what did it. Almost everybody smoked back in those days, it seems. Do you remember Jimmy Stewart or Bob Hope smoking? They both lived to a ripe, old age (didn't Bob Hope make it to his 100th birthday?). I'm sure there might have been an occasional cigarette because of a part, but I don't have a clear memory of seeing them smoking. John Wayne, on the other hand, smoked in almost every movie, and frequently. It really stands out as a continuing thing over many years.

Chester :newyear: and the Mrs. :angel1:

I agree that they didn't smoke all that much, but even in It's A Wonderful Life, Stewart smoked in a couple of scenes. Bob Hope smoke in movies himself, of course that could of been because of the movie and the scenes requiring smoking, and yes they could have done without a smoking scenes, but that was a different time period, and growing up in the 60's it seemed that everybody around me smoked (there were exceptions of a few people).

The Conqueror had a common occurance that happened to almost everyone who was a part of that movie. John Wayne, Susan Hayward, Pedro Armendariz, Agnes Moorehead, John Hoyt, Director Dick Powell, and several others on the cast have died with a cancer causing health problem. Much too early in most of their lives. Duke was later than most. It was reported that a month before the cast & crew came to location, the government was doing nuclear testing.

Though this movie was not memorable as a John Wayne classic, and was a turing point in his career, not a good one, but one, with health related problems that would haunt him for the rest of his life.

And yes, I agree that his smoking habits did not help matters, either.

Cheers, Hondo B)

Just for the record: Brando, who should have played Khan, writes in his biography: that he always thought it ironic that the man who stood very much for "Nuke-em" politics became victim to that very same weapon himself.

I was kinda surprised to see some of you put THE COWBOYS on a list of films he shouldn't have done. Whereas everybody has his own taste of course, I still find it difficult to believe that some of you hate that movie because Wayne is killed off 20 minutes from the finale. It seems you completely miss the point when you dislike it for that reason and I would like to explain.

The parallels of this film seem to be quite obvious and were pointed out even at his first release (critics sometimes need a couple of years to fully appreciate what a film has to give, but THE COWBOYS wasn't one of those sleepers). "Like a Christus of the Frontier" one critic wrote, and nailed it. Look:

The obvious number of 11 (!) boys following their teacher who is eventually taken by night. The Last Supper, western style: Wayne even delivers the line "take a piece and pass it on" - with a pouch of dry meat.

"Carrying his cross" stoically and "going down" three times.

Even the little Judas is forgiven.

His followers carry out the testament of the Old West - Wayne-style.

The resurrection: When they are looking for his dead body - it's not there anymore. But his followers will carry on his gospel: "Saddle up - We're burnin' daylight" is the last line of the picture, and "saddle up" of course is a Wayne trademark line.

Apart from that, The Cowboys stands out as one of the few productions late in his life NOT made by Batjac, and it had a much bigger budget and better production values. Of course, we all love what those Batjac films give us, but to be honest, they were economically made (that's the way Wayne liked it, very much like Eastwood does his Malpaso films, in a stark style, and Wayne even complained at one point of "over-spending" at The Cowboys) but they often just used Wayne as Wayne, not giving him much to do as an actor, just using the image. Like Allen Eyles pointed out in the case of TRAIN ROBBERS: "just using Wayne for what he stands for". As every book about the genre testifies, "The Cowboys", along with "The Shootist", stands out as one of the great and last "old-fashioned" westerns in the final decade of the western.

Hi
It was also said that personally Wayne was very uncomfortable with the Cowboys because of the blooding up. But at the end accepted it as a sign of the violent times that films were going through in the sixties and seventies.


Regards
Arthur

Hiya Hondo ---

Yeah, the cop film thing just didn't seem to be a natural fit for Duke. I don't like to think about him doing it because of Clint Eastwood, either. I understand it, to some extent, but I just wish he had remained true to his own calling... if that makes any sense.

Anyway, just to show all of you how pitiful I am compared to some of you, below is a list of all the Duke films I've seen. I might be forgetting some but this should be pretty complete. I don't mind any of them, really!

1975 Rooster Cogburn
1975 Brannigan - didn't see all of it, actually...
1969 True Grit
1967 El Dorado
1965 The Sons of Katie Elder
1963 McLintock!
1962 Hatari!
1962 The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance
1959 Rio Bravo
1959 The Horse Soldiers
1956 The Searchers
1953 Hondo
1952 The Quiet Man
1951 Flying Leathernecks
1949 Wake of the Red Witch
1949 The Fighting Kentuckian
1949 Sands of Iwo Jima
1949 She Wore a Yellow Ribbon
1948 The Three Godfathers
1948 Red River
1946 Without Reservations
1945 They Were Expendable
1945 Flame of Barbary Coast
1943 A Lady Takes a Chance
1942 The Flying Tigers
1941 Tall in the Saddle
1940 The Dark Command
1939 Stagecoach

Okay, so if I had to pick a couple that I didn't like quite as much, I'd probably pick McLintock! (I'm not a feminist but, still!), Flying Leathernecks (the war films aren't always my favorite), The Flame of Barbary Coast, and The Flying Tigers. (These last two I quite liked, I just didn't care at all for his female leads!)

Regarding smoking in films...

I am very much against cigarette smoking for what it does to a person. My dad smokes and I hate it!!! I wish he'd quit. On the other hand, I admit that it looks pretty danged cool sometimes in a movie. Imagine The Quiet Man without Duke and his pensively smoked ciggies. It's always interesting to watch people's hands and the cigarette is a handy little prop that invites us to look at them.

Another star who went too early (and I think we can probably blame it on cigarettes) is Humphrey Bogart, of course. Too bad it looked so cool. I feel like such a hypocrite! :rolleyes:

Oh... one more thing. I am very glad to hear that Mrs. Chester agrees with me about Duke's lack of smarminess. :) Nary a smarmy cell in him.

Jen,

It would be easier for me to tell you what Duke moviesI haven't seen. I have never seen, Shepherd in the Hills, Island in the Sky, almost all his "B" movies, and to tell you the truth, How the West was Won. I did see the scene with Duke and Harry Morgan, but not the whole movie.

Cheers, Hondo B)

Hello Everyone

I go away for a few days and it seem like I've missed an entire conversation. :D

First of all when the question mentioned indicating our least favourite Duke movies I had the sinking feeling that two of my favourites were going to be mentioned and I was proved right and these movies are 'McQ' and 'Brannigan'. Now I know that Duke more or less copied Clint via these two movies but one cant help thinking that Clint copied an awful lot from the Duke and that Rooster Cogburn in True Grit was basically a template for Harry Callohan. Regarding Dukes cop movies I feel Duke adapts himself nicely to these movies and that they were a refreshing change of pace after some of his westerns went a little stale such as Train Robbers and Cahill. I only wish he made a few more cop movies but I am more than happy with what he did make that is why I am so fascinated about any information regarding deleted scenes within these movies. Lets face it its 1970 and there is need for a tough guy to play a cop who do you think of 1st and it aint Mr Eastwood. Duke has some excellent one-liners in his cop movies as well as some superb action especially the car chase in Brannigan and the one along the beach in McQ. The plots in both movies are well written and there is virtually no bad acting, the action is slick and well directed and despite what most say Duke looks comfortable and his acting is as good as ever. People accuse Duke of racism and Sexism but by claiming he was too old for these cop movies these same people are responsible for discrimination against older people. The fact that Duke was older in both these movies brings more interest to the character, inspiration to other people whom may feel getting older and whom feel it is a hindrance and it is also very admirable of the Duke himself when one considers he did most of his own stunts and at his age he decided to broaden his horizons rather than give up as so many other people have done when they reached their sixties. Clint himself has made few movies in the 90's and has turned to direction because of age and poor old Jimmy Stewart was reduced to roles as a granddad etc when he reached his sixties. Also the fact that McQ was an enormous box office hit is also proof of its worth although Brannigan the superior of the two movies was not such a big hit. In conclusion give these two movies at least one more try I'm confident you wont be disappointed.

A surprise occurrence on the list of bad movies by the Duke for me personally was the cowboys. In my opinion it is an excellent modern day western that boasts great acting, direction, acting, scenery and a great storyline. I think Dukes acting in this movie is better than it was in True Grit and boy does the big man really flex his acting muscles in this great movie. However being the John Wayne fan that I am I do feel that his death was inappropriate despite Rolands great comparison with the life of Jesus. It is difficult to watch him being shot five times however despite what most say he wasn't shot in the back. I am curious to know why big John took on this role when it did require him to be killed and I did feel that after his death there was certainly a void in the movie, which brought it down just a little. I found some great aspects of the movie they are

1. Duke breaking in that horse at the start.
2. Duke being a little cruel to one of the boys and then admitting to Mr Nitlinger that 'I guess I don’t always decide right'
3. The look of worry in his eyes the night before the big cattle drive.
4. Some of the snappy dialogue between Duke and Dern.
5. Duke and Mr. Nittlinger finding the boy drinking.
6. Dukes very touching and well acted little talk over the grave of one of the boys
7. The look of hurt in his eyes looking at the graves of his two sons.
8. Duke kicking Bruce Derns sorry little ass.

I am actually interested in these two off set how did they get along with each other but all in all The Cowboys is an excellent movie and certainly not a negative in Duke portfolio although I do wish that he didn’t have to be killed in it.


Movies that I wish Duke didn’t make

1. Legend of the Lost, a truly atrocious movie one of the worst I have ever seen.
2. Flame of Barbarry Coast, this movie is badly acted and goes nowhere.
3. Donavans Reef, Duke only made it out of loyalty to Ford.
4. The Magnificent Showman, a very stale movie
5. The Horse Soldiers- a big letdown

Movies I wish Duke did make

1. Dirty Harry
2. The Magnificent Seven as Chris
3. Where Eagles Dare

Regarding smoking in movies I do feel that if it was eliminated completely it would be a little silly as it adds to the authenticity of the characters and of real life and I don't believe that Dukes cancer came from the testing site of nuclear bombs where the Conqueror was made I feel this just a Hollywood legend like the one in which a muchincan can been seen hanging himself in the wizard of oz when in reality it is simply a giant bird. Finally I think Brandos comments were disgusting but then again this was a troubled nobody who’s movies I have little time for.

Originally posted by Robbie@Jan 25 2004, 11:29 AM
I found some great aspects of the movie they are . . .

8. Duke kicking Bruce Derns sorry little ass.
Robbie,

I guess Brits and Yanks do actually speak the same language after all! :D
And I do enjoy that part of the movie!


BTW, the rest of your post was awesome! Some really good points. Just so you know, I don't dislike the movie The Cowboys, but it is among the least liked. I have many of the same thoughts that you and Roland have expressed here. It is a good quality film, good plot, great acting, but I find the Duke's death disheartening, especially at the hands of a creep :angry: :angry: .

Roland's comparison between The Cowboys and the Last Supper was an intriguing one that my wife and I had not even considered previously.

So . . . Marlon Brandon's not one of your favorites, I take it . . . ;) .

Chester :newyear:

Hi everyone
On a facetious note can you imagine a slant eyed Marlon Brando saying to Rod Steiger in his best method acting

"I COULDA BEEN A CONQUEROR"

Regards

Arthur

Hi again

On the subject of slant eyes.

After John Wayne completed the Conqueror it was reported in one of our movie magazines that as a reslt of him having his eyes continually taped up to give him the mongol look, he was confined to his house for several weeks with severe eye strain


Regards

Arthur

For goodness' sake... that's interesting. I wonder if Brando had jaw strain after stuffing his mouth full of cotton balls to play Don Corleone.

Hey again Hondo -

I'm impressed by your list, though certainly not surprised. May I ask if there is any specific reason why you haven't seen Shepherd of the Hills? Is that one hard to find? I thought I saw where it had been on TCM a while back, but maybe I'm thinking of something else.

I've got a lot of films to see yet... too bad the two main networks who show them (AMC & TCM) tend to show the same ones over and over again. I need to get off my wallet, I guess. ;)

I would wish duke didnt made all the movies between The Big Trail and Stagecoach.

I dont know why fans hate the death of the Duke in The Cowboys but I think It is not so bad, because duke knows he had already beaten Bruce Dern in the fist fight, and walks away Dern shoots his first shot in the arm, but he dont turned around because he protected in my opinion his own dignity against the the children.
(I have too agree I prefer to see Wayne dieing in the middle of the fight then on this couartly way, but Bern is the perfect bad guy also like in Will Penny).

I also wish he didnt made:
The Qonquer
Legends of the lost
Blood Alley

Robbie why didnt you want that the duke made The Horse Soldiers?
I am glad he made It because he played only in 5 westerns in the 50's without It only 4, I love the ending.
And I cant imagine to see duke as Chris in the Magnificent seven.

movies I wish he did made:
-Bandolero in stead of Jimmy Stewart.
-Dirty harry
-Cheyenne Autumn as a worty ending coorporation with Ford instead of Donovans Reef
-Two Mules for sister sarah
-The Wild Bunch
-Blazing Saddles
-The Professionals

cya
Jwfan

A Girl Named Jen...

I just noticed that based on your list, you have never seen The Shootist. For goodness sake, stop what you are doing right now, and go watch it. You should be able to pick up a used copy on E-Bay. But Duke's last film is one of his best IMHO.

GSP

Jen,

When I collected VHS's I watched all of Duke's movies. The Shepherd of the Hills was not on video nor has been, and I missed watching it on TV when it came on. I just didn't get around to seeing it, so I missed. I guess your right that I've seen a lot of his movies. Most of them more than once. A few of my favorite ones a lot, like Rio Bravo, McLintock!, The Shootist, Hondo, The Sons of Katie Elder, True Grit, The Searchers, Stagecoach, The Green Berets, Sands of Iwo Jimo, Trouble Along the Way & The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance.

As for Island in the Sky, well you know the story there, and I am beginning to see the "B" movies, but that will take a while, and I'm in no hurry right now.

Cheers, Hondo B)

JW Fan

The Horse Soldiers in my opinion was a dreadful movie and it failed at the box office. The scene in which the confederates attack the yanks in the town is really badly directed. The leading ladies acting is very weak and there is a lack of excitement within the movie a truely forgettable movie in my opinion.


Chester, oh yes us Brits use that phrase too.



:agent:

hi hondo,

if you like the green berets then go to ebay australia and you will find up for bidding a photo and film strip combo from a lady going by the name of hellodear1 starting bid is australian $30 give it a try if she won't post overseas let me know if you get it and make arrangements with me and i will get it sent to you

cheers smokey

Hey General Price:

Y'know, I just have a hard time even thinking about watching that one. Knowing it's his last film, the poignancy behind the fact that he was dying and that his character was dying as well... oh! It makes me sad. :( But I'm sure I'll see it eventually.

Jen

I hear you on the emotions you feel as you contemplate watching The Shootist, and whenever my wife suggests that we watch it, I hesitate because of that, but then when we go ahead and see it, I am never sorry I did.

GSP

Hi

Many fans and critics tend to agree that if it wasn't for the bad scheduling by the studio John Wayne should have been at least nominated for an Academy Award for the Shootist and perhaps won it. Considering his age, his health and the problems encountered in making the picture I consider the Shootist was one of his greatest roles.

Regards
Arthur

Hi Hondo

I write to regularly to a friend in Canada who is a relative of Rod Cameron and he sends me various bits and pieces on John Wayne.

I don't know how old this is or even if it is still extant but here goes.

One of the items sent was a page from an AMC magazine and it shows an advertisment and order form for a number of Critics Choice Videos under video classics these are:

HONDO KKMP10007021 $19.95
McLINTOCK KKMP1006022 $19.95
THE SHEPHERD OF THE HILLS KKCMA000101 $19.95
HANGMANS HOUSE KKTMC004022 $19.95
THE ALAMO KKMGM305395 $24.95
THE QUIET MAN (40th Anniversary Edition) KKRPC003361 $19.95

The address is Critics Choice Video, PO Box 749, Dept 60171, Itasca IL 60143-0749

Sorry no email address.

If the Quiet Man is a 40th Anniversary Edition I guess this paper was printed sometime in the mid 90's but it might be worth checking out

Regards

Arthur

If its the 40th anniversary Quiet Man edition, then it was in 1992 and also has the feature documentary on the film by Leonard Maltkin.

GSP

You will all be happy to know that Critics' Choice Video is alive and well and on the Internet - Critics' Choice Video & DVD ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). I think I must have bought something from them through Ebay at some point in time, so now we are on their mailing list, and a catalog came just yesterday - a 60-page color brochure, jam packed with tons of movies, and pretty decent prices. I haven't compared their prices with Deep Discount DVD ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), although I would do so if I was planning on ordering something. Anyway, here are links to some of the movies Arthur mentioned. Knowing Hondo's feeling about McLintock and Good Times Video, I didn't link to that one, but it's there (2 DVDs and one VHS). Having that title in both DVD and VHS (hey, they came in boxed sets that were given as gifts), I can tell you that the quality is not that good, so I applaud Hondo on his stand to hold out until it is released "properly." They have a pretty extensive selection ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) of John Wayne movies.

Happy browsing!

Chester :newyear:

Okay, GSP... I looked and my library has a copy on DVD that I've put on reserve. I'll be sure to give you guys a full report once I've watched it.

I'm going to have a box of Kleenex close at hand, though.

Author

I agree that Duke could have done with out contributing to the movies 'TGSET' AND 'HT[Only registered and activated users can see links]; as neither film boasted the mans qualities however 'The Longest Day' is a great movie and Duke is an important part of that movie he helps hold it all together. Unlike the other two movies Duke has a number of scenes in this movie which acts well in and which boast his star and acting qualities.

I may have asked this before but how did Duke feel about his character having to die in 'The Cowboys' and whats was the atmosphere like between him and Dern off camera.

:agent:

I really don't care for the killing of him in The Cowboys either. It was such a good movie until that part. It made you think of his wife back home that would never see him again. Another movie that I really don't care for is El Dorado. It's a remake of Rio Bravo obviously. It's like Robert Mitchum is trying to be Dean Martin and Mississippi or whoever he was, was doing the same as Ricky Nelson. Why was that movie made anyway? Does anyone know much about it?

That's how I feel anyway,
LittleDuke

The Greatest Story Ever Told was a movie Duke did for director George Stevens. Stevens wanted to cast Duke in the movie, but Duke was busy with another movie, but agreed to appear uncredited in a scene. Stevens casted him as a Roman Centurion in the Cross scene. He was so grateful for the favor Duke did for him. Maybe you might think that this is a movie Duke shouldn't have done, but Stevens would argue with you on that. If I recall, this movie helped Stevens propel as a major director, and he credited Duke for his appearance.

As for How The West Was Won, it seems that every western star was in that movie, and maybe it was insufficient for him to appear in the scene, but I bet it gave that movie more creditability. It may have not added much to Duke's credit, but having him appear added to the movie.

Cheers, Hondo B)

Has anyone's opinion altered in any way over time. Are there new thoughts.

Hello Everyone

I go away for a few days and it seem like I've missed an entire conversation. :D

First of all when the question mentioned indicating our least favourite Duke movies I had the sinking feeling that two of my favourites were going to be mentioned and I was proved right and these movies are 'McQ' and 'Brannigan'. Now I know that Duke more or less copied Clint via these two movies but one cant help thinking that Clint copied an awful lot from the Duke and that Rooster Cogburn in True Grit was basically a template for Harry Callohan. Regarding Dukes cop movies I feel Duke adapts himself nicely to these movies and that they were a refreshing change of pace after some of his westerns went a little stale such as Train Robbers and Cahill. I only wish he made a few more cop movies but I am more than happy with what he did make that is why I am so fascinated about any information regarding deleted scenes within these movies. Lets face it its 1970 and there is need for a tough guy to play a cop who do you think of 1st and it aint Mr Eastwood. Duke has some excellent one-liners in his cop movies as well as some superb action especially the car chase in Brannigan and the one along the beach in McQ. The plots in both movies are well written and there is virtually no bad acting, the action is slick and well directed and despite what most say Duke looks comfortable and his acting is as good as ever. People accuse Duke of racism and Sexism but by claiming he was too old for these cop movies these same people are responsible for discrimination against older people. The fact that Duke was older in both these movies brings more interest to the character, inspiration to other people whom may feel getting older and whom feel it is a hindrance and it is also very admirable of the Duke himself when one considers he did most of his own stunts and at his age he decided to broaden his horizons rather than give up as so many other people have done when they reached their sixties. Clint himself has made few movies in the 90's and has turned to direction because of age and poor old Jimmy Stewart was reduced to roles as a granddad etc when he reached his sixties. Also the fact that McQ was an enormous box office hit is also proof of its worth although Brannigan the superior of the two movies was not such a big hit. In conclusion give these two movies at least one more try I'm confident you wont be disappointed.

A surprise occurrence on the list of bad movies by the Duke for me personally was the cowboys. In my opinion it is an excellent modern day western that boasts great acting, direction, acting, scenery and a great storyline. I think Dukes acting in this movie is better than it was in True Grit and boy does the big man really flex his acting muscles in this great movie. However being the John Wayne fan that I am I do feel that his death was inappropriate despite Rolands great comparison with the life of Jesus. It is difficult to watch him being shot five times however despite what most say he wasn't shot in the back. I am curious to know why big John took on this role when it did require him to be killed and I did feel that after his death there was certainly a void in the movie, which brought it down just a little. I found some great aspects of the movie they are

1. Duke breaking in that horse at the start.
2. Duke being a little cruel to one of the boys and then admitting to Mr Nitlinger that 'I guess I don’t always decide right'
3. The look of worry in his eyes the night before the big cattle drive.
4. Some of the snappy dialogue between Duke and Dern.
5. Duke and Mr. Nittlinger finding the boy drinking.
6. Dukes very touching and well acted little talk over the grave of one of the boys
7. The look of hurt in his eyes looking at the graves of his two sons.
8. Duke kicking Bruce Derns sorry little ass.

I am actually interested in these two off set how did they get along with each other but all in all The Cowboys is an excellent movie and certainly not a negative in Duke portfolio although I do wish that he didn’t have to be killed in it.


Movies that I wish Duke didn’t make

1. Legend of the Lost, a truly atrocious movie one of the worst I have ever seen.
2. Flame of Barbarry Coast, this movie is badly acted and goes nowhere.
3. Donavans Reef, Duke only made it out of loyalty to Ford.
4. The Magnificent Showman, a very stale movie
5. The Horse Soldiers- a big letdown

Movies I wish Duke did make

1. Dirty Harry
2. The Magnificent Seven as Chris
3. Where Eagles Dare

Regarding smoking in movies I do feel that if it was eliminated completely it would be a little silly as it adds to the authenticity of the characters and of real life and I don't believe that Dukes cancer came from the testing site of nuclear bombs where the Conqueror was made I feel this just a Hollywood legend like the one in which a muchincan can been seen hanging himself in the wizard of oz when in reality it is simply a giant bird. Finally I think Brandos comments were disgusting but then again this was a troubled nobody who’s movies I have little time for.

In answer to your question Kilo I would say that "The Horse Soldiers," now ranks as a firm favourite, some of the other movies on my list I have not seen for some time but at this moment in time I feel they still belong there.

:agent:

Hi

Its amazing how one little question brought about such a brilliant topic of conversation. It just goes to show what a fabulous board this is.

Regards

Arthur

I could live without a lot of the B westerns in the 1930s before Stagecoach if Duke could have had 10 more productive years of movies in the 1970s and 1980s in his prime.

Post Stagecoach (no that's not a choice) Tycoon, The Sea Chase, Jet Pilot, The Conqueor , Barbarian & the Geisha , Donovan's Reef, Circus World and The Greatest Story Ever told.


Mike

I wish the Duke had not done „The Green Berets“! Not because of what the movie said about war in Vietnam. Although the Duke´s opinion about the Vietnam-War isn´t mine, it´s O.K. for me, that he wanted to express his feelings about that war in the movie, but “The Green Berets” is not a good War Movie and John Wayne had done much, much better War Movies!

In “The Green Berets” we have two different story plots, like two episodes of a TV-Show. First there is the fight for that US-camp in the jungle and then the secret operation to capture a communist leader. The characters in the movie do not have a real good and interesting background. Compare “The Green Berets” to “In Harm´s Way”, You will find much more interesting characters there! If You compare it to “They were Expendable” You will see, that this movie has one good story arc – it is about leaving, saying good bye and loosing friends in war. If You take a look at Sergeant Stryker in “Sands of Iwo Jima”, he is a much more interesting character for John Wayne to play and to show his great talent as an actor, than Col. Kirby in “The Green Berets”. I even prefer “The fighting Seabees” to “Green Berets”.

Some people here mentioned “The Conqueror”. I can live with that, although it´s not typical for John Wayne and sure not his best. I think, he is not the man for those history-movies, but he was a strong male actor and so they choose him for the role. I cannot imagine Marlon Brando as Temujin, he is not as tall and strong as the Duke! Maybe it would have been a good role for Charlton Heston, who played El Cid and Ben Hur… I have watched “The Conqueror” in English and German language, and believe me: this movie sounds much better with the German dialogs!

Others here did not like “The Cowboys”. I always enjoyed that movie! “The Cowboys” had all the traditional Western elements like horse-braking, cattle-driving, rustlers trying to steel the herd, and it is about loyalty and being responsible for bringing a job to an end. It´s about boys growing up to be men, and Will Anderson shows them what it means, to be a man – who could teach them better than John Wayne? And I like the soundtrack of “The Cowboys” very much!

I wish John Wayne had done “Lonesome Dove”! I read, that long before Larry McMurtry wrote the novel and brought it later to television, starring Robert Duvall and Tommy Lee Jones, he had given a script to John Wayne and the idea was, John Wayne to play Capt. Woodrow Call and James Stewart to play Capt. Gus McCrea. I think, this would have been the perfect couple for “Lonesome Dove”, but the Duke did not like the script and the rest is history…

I liked Robert Duvall as Gus, but I never liked Tommy Lee Jones, how much better would have been John Wayne as Woodrow Call! – “Lonesome Dove” would have been a perfect John Wayne movie, I think, because is about friendship and keeping promises, it´s about how it can change Your life, whether You ride with good companions or You fall in with bad companions and we have a father-son conflict too. We all know, John Wayne could have handled that great, because we have seen it in “Red River”!