THE BIG TRAIL

DIRECTED BY RAOUL WALSH
PRODUCED BY WINFIELD R. SHEEHAN
FOX FILM CORPORATION

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c187/john-wayne/John%20Wayne/A200137.jpg..http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c187/john-wayne/John%20Wayne/Bjohnwayne35.jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c187/john-wayne/John%20Wayne/CJohn_Wayne___The_Big_Trail__C10104.jpg..http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c187/john-wayne/John%20Wayne/Dbig_1.jpg

INFORMATION FROM IMDb

Plot Summary
Breck leads a wagon train of pioneers through Indian attack, storms, deserts,
swollen rivers, down cliffs and so on while looking for the murder of a trapper
and falling in love with Ruth.

Full Cast
John Wayne .... Breck Coleman
Marguerite Churchill .... Ruth Cameron
El Brendel .... Gussie
Tully Marshall .... Zeke
Tyrone Power Sr. .... Red Flack, wagon boss (as Tyrone Power)
David Rollins .... Dave 'Davey' Cameron
Frederick Burton .... Pa Bascom
Ian Keith .... Bill Thorpe
Charles Stevens .... Lopez
Louise Carver .... Gussie's mother-in-law
rest of cast listed alphabetically:
Chief John Big Tree .... Indian (uncredited)
Ward Bond .... Sid Bascom (uncredited)
Nino Cochise .... Indian (uncredited)
Iron Eyes Cody .... Indian (uncredited)
Don Coleman .... Wrangler (uncredited)
Emslie Emerson .... Sairey (uncredited)
Alphonse Ethier .... Marshal (uncredited)
Dannie Mac Grant .... (uncredited)
Marcia Harris .... Mrs. Riggs (uncredited)
Marilyn Harris .... Pioneer girl (uncredited)
DeWitt Jennings .... Boat Captain Hollister (uncredited)
Marjorie Leet .... Mildred Riggs (uncredited)
Marion Lessing .... (uncredited)
William V. Mong .... Wellmore, trading post owner (uncredited)
Pete Morrison .... Wrangler (uncredited)
Dodo Newton .... Abigail Vance (uncredited)
Jack Padjan .... Pioneer (uncredited)
Helen Parrish .... Honey Girl Cameron (uncredited)
Robert Parrish .... Pioneer boy (uncredited)
Jack Peabody .... Bill Gillis (uncredited)
Russ Powell .... Windy Bill (uncredited)
Frank Rainboth .... Ohio man (uncredited)
Apache Bill Russell .... (uncredited)
Andy Shuford .... Bit part (uncredited)
Gertrude Van Lent .... Sister from Missouri (uncredited)
Lucille Van Lent .... Sister from Missouri (uncredited)

Writing Credits
Hal G. Evarts (story)
Raoul Walsh (story contributor) uncredited
Marie Boyle (screenplay) (dialogue) uncredited &
Jack Peabody (screenplay) (dialogue) uncredited
Florence Postal (screenplay) (dialogue) uncredited

Produced
Winfield R. Sheehan .... producer (uncredited)

Original Music
R.H. Bassett (uncredited)
Peter Brunelli (uncredited)
Alfred Dalby (uncredited)
Arthur Kay (uncredited)
Jack Virgil (uncredited)

Cinematography
Lucien N. Andriot (photographed by) (35mm version) (as Lucien Andriot)
Arthur Edeson

Trivia
Gary Cooper was originally offered the role of Breck Coleman and wanted it, but he was under contract to Paramount Pictures, which refused to loan him out. The role was eventually given to John Wayne.

This was his only talking film of Tyrone Power Sr., father of Tyrone Power. He died in 1931.

Incredibly, five different versions of this film were shot simultaneously. (1) a 70mm version in the Grandeur process for exhibition in the biggest movie palaces; (2) a standard 35mm version for general release; (3) a 35mm alternate French language version La piste des géants (1931)' (4) a 35 mm alternate Spanish language version La gran jornada (1931), and (5) a 35 mm alternate German language version Die große Fahrt (1931). The three alternate language versions were shot with (mostly) different casts.

Reportedly this film debuted at a running time of 158 minutes. However, this is unconfirmed as of May 2008.

This film was shot in both the wide screen format, synonymous with "Cinemescope", as well as the standard format. Special wide screens were needed. Most theaters featured only the standard version of the film. Moviegoers at that time, the 1930s, had difficulty paying higher ticket prices to accommodate the new process. This process was soon abandoned but reappeared in 1953 with The Robe (1953), produced in Cinemescope. Television had taken some revenue away from the movie industry and the economy had improved.

John Wayne's first movie role. Raoul Walsh was having trouble casting the movie when he saw Wayne taking furniture off a truck. Wayne worked for the studio in the prop department.

Marion Morrison was discovered working in the part department and was cast in this film. The producers didn't like his name. Raoul Walsh (the director, who discovered him) suggested Wayne as a last name. He had recently been reading about General Anthony Wayne (Mad Anthony Wayne). The studio added John and the rest was history.

Goofs
* Errors in geography: The settlers are supposed to be going to Oregon. The Oregon Trail ended at present day Oregon City. The sequoia grove they settle in at the end of the movie can only be in the Sierra Nevada mountains of California. Sequoias don't grow anywhere else in the world.

Memorable Quotes (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0020691/quotes)

Filming Locations
Buttercup Dunes, Imperial County, California, USA
Grand Canyon National Park, Arizona, USA
Grand Teton Pass, Wyoming, USA
Hurricane Bluffs, Zion National Park, Springdale, Utah, USA
Imperial County, California, USA
Jackson Hole, Wyoming, USA
Moise-National Buffalo Range, Montana, USA
Moisie, Montana, USA
Oregon, USA
Sacramento River, California, USA
Sacramento, California, USA
Sequoia National Park - 47050 Generals Highway, Three Rivers, California, USA
St. George, Utah, USA
Yellowstone National Park, Wyoming, USA
Yuma, Arizona, USA
Zion National Park, Springdale, Utah, USA

I enjoyed the film, and although it was a flop at the Box Office,
it brought the name of John Wayne, to the big time screen.
Raoul Walsh, giving the young John Ford prop man, a suprise leading role, changing Dukes name in the process!!
It's amusing now, to see the big fella dashing and scampering around with a squeaky voice,
and apart from the hammy acting, typical of the era,
and Ward Bond, mouthing everyone elses words,
it's a great film.
Rating 6/10

Previous discussion:-
The Big Trail (http://www.dukewayne.com/showthread.php?t=4089)

Hi,
Thought it would be a good idea to transfer all the previous comments, across to,
this, new Forum.
The Ringo Kid*
post Dec 5 2005, 10:13 PM
This sounds like a great idea.

Though I have not watched The Big Trail in several years, I do remember liking it and thought it was great to see a really young Duke at the helm. :)
SXViper
post Dec 6 2005, 02:49 AM
It has been along time for me as well since I have seen this movie. I must confess it is not one of my favorites. And to be honest it was not a well acted movie by Duke in my opinion. I realize that this was his first major starring role, and it shows, but he did learn allot from the filming of this movie and it shows througout the rest of his career. The one notable thing about the movie was some of the technical aspects, like being 1 of the 1st widescreen movies ever filmed and some of the stunts that were performed were quit outstanding for the era. Overall, I would give this movie 2.5 stars out of 5.*
arthurarnell*
post Dec 6 2005, 07:13 AM
Hi

I think the film is quite watchable, allowing for the fact that it is some years since I saw it.

Critics at the time liked it The New york Times saying that MR Wayne acquits himself with no little distinction. His performance is pleasingly natural[I].
and Variety The Big puzzle to the Big Trail is why it was not given drawing names

Later William K Everson said It carried far more drama and conviction than anything in the Covered Wagon one of the most impressive of all superwesterns[I]

You also have to bear in mind when watching it that a number of theatrical actors were in the film and their acting showed. They were also a drunken bunch of bums and it should have been titled the Big Drink as most of them were rarely sober.

The scenes such as lowering the wagons down the cliff are very good and way ahead of their time.

The reason the film was not the success it should have been was the format the super 70 was in place in only a few cinemas throughout the United States and owners were not prepared to accommodate the film by putting the special screens in. Later as Cinemscope the new innovation became popular fifty years after its initial failure. At the same time Able Gance was encountering the same difficulties with His Napolean which was shown on three screens (the forerunner to Cinerama).

It shoud also be taken into account that apart from it being John Wayne's first major role for a large portion of the making of the picture he was ill, and at one point it was even suggested that he be dropped from the picture.

In view of all the hardships trials and tribulations that went on. I think his performance was creditable.

If you watch Ford's The Iron Horse which is credited as being a masterpiece then Walsh's The Big Trail for both story and filming is on a par.


Regards

Arthur
Senta*
post Dec 6 2005, 10:55 AM
Hi all,
it is a great idea of reviewing films of the week. Even if some of us (like me) didn't see the film yet, it will encourage them to somehow get and see it at last.
I didn't see The Big Trail for the pity, but I hope to see it sometime. May be I shall look for it at e-bay. I like other Walsh films, so I think that this one was also good and it is really interesting to see Duke in his first major part.
I have read all your comments with great interest.
Regards,
Senta

ZACK613
post Dec 6 2005, 07:46 PM
Duke's acting is solid in the Movie. I found it well made and well acted over all. As to being as good as the IRON HORSE...I don't know about that. I don't think BIG TRAIL was any were as many powerful images as IRON HORSE has. The acting is pretty much on par but Walsh is no John Ford. :cowboy:*
Hondo Duke Lane*
post Dec 6 2005, 11:25 PM
QUOTE(arthurarnell @ Dec 6 2005, 02:13 AM)
.....You also have to bear in mind when watching it that a number of theatrical actors were in the film and their acting showed. They were also a drunken bunch of bums and it should have been titled the Big Drink as most of them were rarely sober.

.....Regards

Arthur



Hey Arthur,

Are you talking about drunk in the movie or drunk while production was going on?

Cheers B)
ejgreen77*
QUOTE(Hondo Duke Lane @ Dec 6 2005, 07:25 PM)
Are you talking about drunk in the movie or drunk while production was going on?
*



Drunk while production was going on. If I recall correctly, "The Big Drunk" was co-star Marguerite Churchill's nickname for the Duke!

E.J.

ethanedwards
post Dec 6 2005, 11:38 PM

Hi ejgreen77,
Quite correct, in fact the film was nicknamed THE BIG DRUNK
In fact Duke was so ill,(whether it was drink or not, was never said),
Raoul Walsh, considered taking Duke out of the film!!
Rumour had it, that Duke showed up for work, some mornings, in such bad shape,
that he had to be wired to his horse, to keep his body erect!!

Keith
Hondo Duke Lane
post Dec 7 2005, 12:59 AM
Alright, alright!

I know for a fact that all of you were not around when this movie was made. How did you know about this little history of this movie? How can Duke do such a thing when this was his big chance to transform form "B" movies to the "A" list? Did he know that he was at risk of messing up his career?

I can say that wasn't really smart. <_<

Cheers B)
ejgreen77*
post Dec 7 2005, 02:14 AM
Hondo,

I was just trying to remember what I read in the book "John Wayne: American." As I do not have the book here in front of me (I rented a copy from the local library several months ago), I may not be completely correct in every detail. However, I'm pretty sure that was what the book said. Maybe someone else who has the book can confirm this?

As to your second question, we know Duke lead quite a wild life while he was a student at USC (if the legends can be believed). So its definitely possible some of that carried over into his early work. His first big break came fairly quickly, maybe he didn't appreciate it enough then. After all, the Duke was certainly no alter boy!

E.J.
Hondo Duke Lane
post Dec 7 2005, 03:05 AM
Good Point, E.J.

I do have that book and I read it January 1999. You can see that it's been almost 7 years. I guess I better get it out and read it again. I wrote in the book when I read it, so that's how I know when.

Cheers B)
Chester
post Dec 7 2005, 06:48 AM
Well, this thread sent me scampering to my bookshelf for my copy of John Wayne, American.

On page 87, referring to Raoul Walsh, it says he commented that his New York talent "probably scattered more whiskey bottles across the Western plains than all of the pioneers." They drank late into the night, complained bitterly about, and occasionally missed, early calls; and appeared red-eyed and hung over on the set. They were unaccustomed to the heat of the West or the demands of the camera, ignorant about the need to flim in the early mornings before the sun rose so high that it washed out shots . . . .

Duke, on the other hand, followed every order suggestion Walsh made. Once again he was the star pupil and athlete - attentive, respectful, coachable. He did not drink, keep late hours, or make a pass at his leading lady. Marguerite Churchill, Walsh observed, "looked stunning in a sunbonnet, but young Wayne's full attention seemed to be concentrated on the part he ws to play. If Lady Godiva had ridden across [the set] with her hair cut off, it was a safe bet he would not even have glanced at her."

The above information was footnoted to be from Raoul Walsh's book, Each Man in His Time.

So it sounds to me like Duke was the consummate professional, something I have seen alluded to many times, while others on the crew behaved just as has been stated above.

Chester :newyear:
ethanedwards*
post Dec 7 2005, 10:46 AM
Hi,
In the book DUKE- The Life and Image of John Wayne
by Ronald L.Davies
He quotes Duke as being a culprit, but also adds
after Walsh had threatened to replace him, because
he was constantly ill, he later complimented
Duke and Ward,
"I guess, I should congratulate, you and your friend Bond,
if only for staying sober."
Dukes reply was,

"You hired me to act, Ward feels the same way"

Keith
Senta*
post Dec 7 2005, 11:12 AM
Hi all,
The discussion of making The Big Trail sounds very interesting. For a pity I didn't read these books, but it is hard to belive that Duke was drank the most of time. It was not like him during the work. With what his illness was connected?
Regards,
Senta
ethanedwards*
post Dec 7 2005, 11:48 AM
Hi Vera,
His illness, wa a poorly tummy, you know what I mean?
May have not been anything to do with drink,
may have been food poisoning anything!!

Keith
The Ringo Kid*
post Dec 7 2005, 06:05 PM


QUOTE(ethanedwards @ Dec 7 2005, 07:48 AM)
Hi Vera,
His illness, wa a poorly tummy, you know what I mean?
May have not been anything to do with drink,
may have been food poisoning anything!!

Keith

I can attest to eating food whether or not it is healthy food, which always makes me feel ill to my stomach. It could also be that maybe the food that they were fed was slightly tainted or was the type of food that certain people were unacustomed to eating.

For instance, if a person who all their life rarely or never had any spicy food all of a sudden ate nothing but spicy food, then more than likely they would always feel ill.

I had food poisoning once when I was in college. From the sounds of what is posted about The Duke always beiong ill, does not sound like he had a case of food poisoning.

Just my opinion though. :)
arthurarnell*
post Dec 9 2005, 07:14 AM
Hi

In my opening thread I deliberately said that Duke was ill during the making of the picture. All agree that the other actors drank to excess.

In Duke the life and times of John Wayne page 99 the following states:-
QUOTE

" The cameras had hardly begun to roll when Duke came down with a case of Dysentry so bebilitating that he was bedridden and unable to work. Walsh shot the film around him, hoping day by day that he'd soon recover, but by the second week he was behind schedule and told Duke that if he could,t get back to work he'd have to be replaced in the film. Duke climbed out of his sick bed twenty pounds lighter and shaky and went before the cameras."


Incidentally in the same chapter the authors quote the equipment that was taken on the locations the logistics are awsome.


Regards

Arthur
arthurarnell*
post Dec 10 2005, 10:48 AM
Hi

In reviwing the Big Trail, no review would be complete without the reminder that it was this film that saw the birth of John Wayne.

Walsh had picked the young Marion Morrison but thought the name didn't match the image of a western star.

Paul Shenhan the producer at Fox was a student of the American wars of the Revolution and suggested Anthony Wayne after the American general Mad Anthony Wayne.

Walsh liked the surname but considered the forname as being too Italian. He then came up with John.

Hence John Wayne.


Regards

Arthur
kilo 6*
post Dec 27 2005, 05:32 AM
Hello All
We went out of town for Christmas and I am behind on my reading , so forgive me for a late entry on The Big Trail. ( We don't do electric anything, much when on vacation ) I read that John Wayne impressed Raoul Walsh by working on a set all day and then helping his buddies break down and pack up then unload equipment. Duke was working on the production side most of the time and on this occasion after a long hot day of desert shooting ( working on the cast side of things) Duke watched several fellow production side, workers, who had been ( like him ) assigned as background performers/ extras, for the day, go home leaving the crew they regularly worked along side, shorthanded for cleanup. Duke stayed on, unpaid, to help his chums get the job done and worked hard. Walsh saw that the man had grit and loyalty and perhaps began to consider him in a new light, or from a different ( camera?) angle. Well it may be just a nice storey but I want to think it,s true and I wont buy a pickled egg for anyone in a tavern who says different. Murray ( thanks for the new thread EE it's good to return to the board and have this as a sort of Christmas gift waiting. As I said b 4 there must be something in the Torquay water, are you sure you are not part Scottish or Irish?
Murray :newyear: :jump:

Watched the movie for the first time on DVD, and with the edited version which is all I have to the movie or be able to get at this time.

With the exception of the diallage and technical aspects, this was a pretty good movie. The lines were terrible, and there was so much noise that you couldn't hear half the bad lines (which might be good). The story line was good, and if they had a screen writer, this movie might have been a great classic. I know that talkies were fairly new, but the noise was very distracting.

I do recall at the beginning of the movie while Marguerite Churchill was having a scene with the steamboat captain the one of the main villains stole the scene by walking in front of the two and just standing. Walsh (the director) should have been shot for letting that happen. The scene was ruined.

I have to say that most of the actors were not that good, and Duke showed a lot of inexperience in that movie as well.

I saw more later.

Cheers B)

One cast member I noticed was Charles Stevens. Is he the same Charlie Stevens that appeared in many westerns as Indians, half breeds and other slimy type characters? If so, does anyone have any info about him? I read many years ago that he was supposed to be related to the famous Apache warrior, Geronimo. A grandson or something. So, if anyone could tell me, I'd appreciate it.

Just watched the big trail on dvd and I thought it was fantastic. It's hard to beleive that it was such a failure at the time that it set the duke's career back almost ten years.

This movie is way better than the stuff that he did for most of the thirties with lonestar (not that there is anything wrong with them, but the quality of the movies can not be compared).

My wife (who isn't a huge fan) really enjoyed this picture. It was sad when windy died near the end in the attack. There are also a lot of really funny one liners hidden in here.

Now if there is a better version lying around some studio somewhere, I would love to see it, but I was pretty happy with the one I bought (the fox version of the film) and enjoyed it thoroughly.

I would like to know about the UK VHS version of The Big Trail released by Fox. It's listed on Amazon UK at 116 minutes (PAL) which is 121 minutes NTSC. The DVD runs runs 108 minutes (NTSC). Is the UK VHS the same widescreen print that runs on the Fox Movie Channel? Even if it isn't, is the UK video version really 121 minutes (in NTSC and film time) or does it include extras?

Keith responded in another topic that the UK VHS box does indeed say 116 minutes, and then I was directed to this topic. But is this pure film or does it include extras? Keith?

Any info would be appreciated. Nothing would surprise me, especially since, for instance, the UK DVD of Without Reservations (1946) is six minutes longer than the heavily cut US print (VHS, LaserDisc and TCM library print; there's no RC1 DVD).

RoughRider

I have seen this film a few times now and find it very good.The noise that someone said in an earlier post (can't remember who that was now)doesn't seem to be on my version.This dvd is propably made specially for the Flemish speaking part of Belgium and for Holland as it starts straight with the dutch subtitles.There's no option to get rid of the subtitles either.

And what a handsome young man Duke was back then... :wub:

Hi RoughRider,

The VHS version I have, which is a genuine
CBS/ FOX release, has a run-time of 116 minutes.
The are a few trailers at the beggining,
but they are not included in this time.

It's interesting to note

The Complete Films of John Wayne

states a run time of 125 minutes!!

Originally posted by ethanedwards@Oct 8 2006, 03:13 PM
Hi RoughRider,

The VHS version I have, which is a genuine
CBS/ FOX release, has a run-time of 116 minutes.
The are a few trailers at the beggining,
but they are not included in this time.

It's interesting to note

The Complete Films of John Wayne

states a run time of 125 minutes!!
35558


Hello, and thanks for responding.

So the PAL VHS (116 minutes) is equivalent to 121 minutes. That's about the same time as the Fox Movie Channel widescreen print shown in the US. Is the UK VHS in widescreen? Can you get the exact running time of the pure film with no extras? That's a little tricky if it's a VHS, of course, but perhaps you tranferred it to DVD which allows viewing total time to the second. The UK video was certified for release at 116m:35s in PAL, which is about 121m:30s in NTSC. But there could be extra stuff that added a few minutes.

Although The Big Trail was in different incarnations, it was certified for a 1930 UK release at 109m:54s, pretty close to the DVD's running time. John Wayne at the Movies says the UK release was 99 minutes, so it was obviously cut further.

Many sources say the film was initially 158 minutes for the widescreen version and 125 minutes for the standard version. It was copyrighted, though, at 13,000 feet which is about 144 minutes.

The NTSC VHS is the full-frame 108-minute version like the DVD. So I'm most curious about the different UK VHS release, especially if it was widescreen and how long the pure film was.

RoughRider

So it is better to buy this film on VHS PAL.
I\ve bought it once on DVD but it was lost by post, so I never seen it :(
Regards,
Senta

Hi RoughRider,

I've checked the film.

It is not Widescreen,and the actual film,
indeed has a run-time of 116 minutes
from start/end credits.

Originally posted by ethanedwards@Oct 9 2006, 07:21 AM
Hi RoughRider,

I've checked the film.

It is not Widescreen,and the actual film,
indeed has a run-time of 116 minutes
from start/end credits.
35610


Thanks, ethanedwards!

I checked out Amazon UK and see that the UK DVD of The Big Trail is the same as the UK VHS, 116 minutes.

So based on what you said of the VHS (the trailers not being part of the 116-minute PAL running time), the UK video release of The Big Trail is 13 minutes longer in real film time than the American video release, and about the same time as the Fox Movie Channel print.

For the sake of comparison:

- Fox RC1 DVD/VHS: 1.33:1; 108m:08s including exit music (equivalent to 103m:48s in PAL)
- Fox Movie Channel print: 2.00:1; 119m:55s (equivalent to 115m:07s in PAL)
- Fox RC2 DVD/VHS: 1.33:1; 116m:35s (equivalent to 121m:26s in NTSC)

Can someone with the UK DVD of The Big Trail confirm the running time minus extraneous modern-day intros? In other words, is it 116m:35s of pure film? (This sounds like a silly question but I'm picky to a fault.) Also, does the UK DVD/VHS have exit music?

RoughRider

John Wayne on DVD: A Filmography
http://www.vanc.igs.net/~roughley/john_way...ilmography.html (http://www.vanc.igs.net/~roughley/john_wayne_dvd_filmography.html)

Hi Rough Rider,

My version, exits very quickly at 'The End'
with the minimum of music,
non of these days, endless credits for another
half an hour!!!

Originally posted by ethanedwards@Oct 9 2006, 08:25 AM
Hi Rough Rider,

My version, exits very quickly at 'The End'
with the minimum of music,
non of these days, endless credits for another
half an hour!!!
35614


Hello, ethanedwards

OK, no exit music then.

Yeah, the end credits these days are longer than some of Wayne's B-movies!

I suspect the longer UK version of The Big Trail is because of language. The shorter RC1 DVD also has a Spanish soundtrack whereas the RC2 doesn't. But why Fox didn't add a Spanish soundtrack to the longer version and release it over here on RC1 is beyond me.

This is a rare case where a RC2 DVD of Wayne's is longer than the RC1 equivalent. I think a few of his 1940's Republic films (e.g. Dakota) are a few minutes longer than their American counterparts, too. But this is something I'm looking into and need to confirm.

RoughRider

John Wayne on DVD: A Filmography (http://www.vanc.igs.net/~roughley/john_wayne_dvd_filmography.html)

Originally posted by RoughRider@Oct 9 2006, 09:17 AM
This is a rare case where a RC2 DVD of Wayne's is longer than the RC1 equivalent. I think a few of his 1940's Republic films (e.g. Dakota) are a few minutes longer than their American counterparts, too. But this is something I'm looking into and need to confirm.


I'll quote myself here... never mind about some of the Republic films from the 1940's being longer in the UK. For some reason, obviously confusion, Amazon UK lists a number of VHS running times that reflect the actual duration in the theatre (or NTSC)--not the time it should be for a PAL video. It gets confusing when they mix PAL and NTSC times.

RoughRider

Originally posted by dc65@Oct 1 2006, 07:58 PM
Just watched the big trail on dvd and I thought it was fantastic. It's hard to believe that it was such a failure at the time that it set the duke's career back almost ten years.35208
dc65,

In one of the posts quoted by Keith above, by Arthur in December of 2005, Arthur explains why the film didn't do well -

The reason the film was not the success it should have been was the format. The super 70 was in place in only a few cinemas throughout the United States and owners were not prepared to accommodate the film by putting the special screens in. Later as Cinemscope the new innovation became popular fifty years after its initial failure. At the same time Able Gance was encountering the same difficulties with His Napolean which was shown on three screens (the forerunner to Cinerama).

We, too, have watched and enjoyed this film. Duke's relative inexperience acting makes it a little special. It is a decent story line, and an interesting little part of cinematic history.

Chester :newyear:

An update on the UK video version of The Big Trail.

I ordered the RC2 DVD from Amazon UK which lists the running time as 116 minutes, just like the VHS version mentioned earlier in this thread -- the one confirmed to be 116 in PAL (or 121 in NTSC film time). I was disappointed to discover that the RC2 DVD has exactly the same running time as the RC1 version (108 minutes NTSC).

It seems, then, that the UK VHS is the one running 116 minutes in PAL and subsequent video releases on DVD used the shorter version. But the DVD Amazon UK sent me has the newer cover, the one saying Studio Classics at the top. The previous UK DVD, released in 2003, has a different cover and is listed at 116 minutes, too (probably a mistake by Amazon just like the newer version).

It looks like I'll have to order the UK VHS of the film and convert it to NTSC then DVD-R, and see for myself. If ethanedwards hadn't confirmed the VHS's running time, I would have assumed it was a mistake in the Amazon listing just like the DVD. Actually I would still be curious because the VHS was passed for UK certification in 1990 at 116m:35s.

ethanedward: what date and catalogue number (or other identifiers) appears on your UK VHS? There's always the chance the one I get will have a different cover and shorter running time, although Amazon UK lists only one VHS version, from CBS/Fox dated 1998. Does yours have the same cover as listed on Amazon UK? If the VHS was passed for certification in 1990, there may have been more than one version subsequently released. If so, it would have to be a shorter version because a longer one would require re-certification.

RoughRider

Hi RoughRider,

OK, well, it does seem totally confusing,
and If I hadn't carried out a physical check,
it would be even more so.

It looks like all the packaging has changed,
and bear in mind, I bought my copy,
when it was first re-released, a few years back!!

Here is the only thumbnail I could find,
but this is the same cover.

[ATTACH]951]

The Front cover shows, a portrait type picture,
headed by THE BIG TRAIL.
under the picture is CBS FOX logo,
and 'ALL TIME GREATS'
(they also issued, Rio Lobo, Big Jake, The Undefeated,
The Comancheros, North to Alaska, The Barbarian and the Geisha,
at the same time)
__________________________________________________ _____
The spine shows, the same logo,
followed by' JOHN WAYNE COLLECTION'

THE BIG TRAIL

HI-FI VHS
CBS FOX VIDEO

1362.
__________________________________________________ _____________
The back cover has the usual blurb, and 3 stills.
with these references.

Black and White
Running time:- approx 116 minutes.

Copyright. 1930
Renewed:- 1957.
__________________________________________________ ____________________
On the VHS label is printed,
Copyright 1990,( When I bought it)
__________________________________________________ _____________________
I believe that the

The Big Trail- The John Wayne Film Society (http://www.filmcutts.com/ProductDetail.php?ProductID=2881&ProductType=John+Wayne+Products)


still has this in stock, click on the link above,
although the cover is different.
It might be a good idea to EMail,
Patrick and David.

Thanks for VHS details.

Amazon UK had two copies of The Big Trail available from affiliate sellers, so I bought one. It's listed under the same VHS cover you show but with a 1998 release date. There's always the chance what I get won't reflect the cover shown, in which case it might not be the 116-minute version that you verified. It might be the cover shown on The John Wayne Film Society, which I assume is the newer VHS release.

Since the UK DVD is 103 minutes (PAL), I imagine Fox would have released it to VHS as well. The back of the UK DVD says 'Approx 103 Minutes' and I've verified it to be the same print as the US DVD (right to the second). But it's obvious that Fox UK released a longer version on home video in 1990. Unless, of course, you were mistaken in your time calculation of the film from start to finish, and the BBFC's video running time of 116m:35s included trailers.

I should note that PAL running times can get confusing. Some DVDs are encoded in such a way that there's no 4% PAL speedup. For example, the UK DVD of Lady from Louisiana plays back at exactly the same speed as NTSC (film time). The box says approximately 83 minutes and that's what it is in real time. So for some PAL videos, taking the running time and multiplying by 1.04 to get real film time isn't applicable. I think this would apply only to DVD which is purely digital as opposed to analog VHS. So in the case of Lady from Louisiana, if I play the DVD on my computer with WinDVD's 'PAL TruSpeed' feature turned on, the film plays 4% too fast. I verified this by syncing the UK DVD with a DVD-R culled from the American VHS -- they're exactly the same running time. The DVD is just digital data, and I guess it's up to the player's decoder to output either a PAL or NTSC signal.

Another example is the UK DVD of The Magnificent Showman which syncs perfectly with the NTSC DVD I have under the title Circus World, all without compensating for PAL speedup. Other UK DVDs, though, have to be sped up to see real film time (like The Big Trail). This understanding of PAL is important because it can alter the true running time of a film. But as mentioned, I don't think this applies to VHS although I could be wrong. A VHS running 116m:35s in PAL should be equivalent to 121m:26s in NTSC.

I'll post an update once I have the UK VHS converted to NTSC and do sync tests to verify the running time.

RoughRider

John Wayne on DVD: A Filmography (http://www.vanc.igs.net/~roughley/john_wayne_dvd_filmography.html)

Hi Rough Rider,

Hopefully VHS players, all run at the same speed, or do they?

116 mins, for sure

Originally posted by ethanedwards@Oct 26 2006, 07:43 AM
Hi Rough Rider,

Hopefully VHS players, all run at the same speed, or do they?

116 mins, for sure
36385


A PAL VHS won't play at all in a standard NTSC player, so the video formats are entirely different. A PAL VHS should play back at 25fps, though. That is, the running time will be shorter. But then again, I thought this of DVD too. But being digital, a film can be encoded in such a way that it doesn't matter what television standard is used: the DVD player's hardware reads the digital data and converts it to whatever display is being used.

As mentioned, some DVDs don't have PAL speed-up. Technically I don't fully understand this fact. My assumption is that they are encoded in a different way, perhaps progressively where each frame in a film is a single digital frame and not interlaced (two fields to create one frame). The player's hardware takes this data and then outputs it to whatever standard is being used (PAL or NTSC). So for some DVDs (at least the way I see it), the only thing that makes them PAL is the physical resolution.

But perhaps some VHSes don't have PAL speed-up either. I imagine there are different ways a film can get telecined to VHS. I also have the UK VHS of Reunion in France on order. The BBFC lists the UK video as 99m:50s, which in NTSC would be 103m:59s (the length of the actual uncut film). The offical American VHS and TCM print runs 98m:46s.

It should be noted that the early NTSC VHS of The Big Trail has the same catalogue number as the UK VHS (#1362), but it's listed over here as 110 minutes instead of 116. (Fox lists the DVD on their online store as 110 minutes, too, but it's actually 108.) If they have the same Fox catalogue number, they should be exactly the same film.

In any case, I'll get to the bottom of this mystery once the UK VHS is in my hands and converted to an NTSC VHS, then to DVD-R (the same with Reunion in France). For The Big Trail I'll do sync tests with the official DVD release. Such tests can be confirmed using the WinDVD player which has a feature called 'PAL TruSpeed'. Mind you, if the UK version is either 8 minutes longer (no PAL speed-up) or 13-14 minutes longer (compensating for PAL speed-up), the difference will be obvious because of additional scenes not on the DVD.

RoughRider
John Wayne on DVD: A Filmography (http://www.vanc.igs.net/~roughley/john_wayne_dvd_filmography.html)

I just watched it for the 2nd time in two days. Its a excellent film indeed. And yes, Mine also kinda exits quickly after 'The End'. The Big Trail is a good starting point for a person like me who is just really getting into John Wayne Movies. I've seen plenty of others over the years, but I cannot recall of the names of them. But really I'm just getting started as far as wanting to watch them all go's. I would love to eventualy own and watch them all.

Originally posted by RoughRider@Oct 31 2006, 07:41 PM
A PAL VHS won't play at all in a standard NTSC player, so the video formats are entirely different. A PAL VHS should play back at 25fps, though. That is, the running time will be shorter. But then again, I thought this of DVD too. But being digital, a film can be encoded in such a way that it doesn't matter what television standard is used: the DVD player's hardware reads the digital data and converts it to whatever display is being used.

As mentioned, some DVDs don't have PAL speed-up. Technically I don't fully understand this fact. My assumption is that they are encoded in a different way, perhaps progressively where each frame in a film is a single digital frame and not interlaced (two fields to create one frame). The player's hardware takes this data and then outputs it to whatever standard is being used (PAL or NTSC). So for some DVDs (at least the way I see it), the only thing that makes them PAL is the physical resolution.

But perhaps some VHSes don't have PAL speed-up either. I imagine there are different ways a film can get telecined to VHS. I also have the UK VHS of Reunion in France on order. The BBFC lists the UK video as 99m:50s, which in NTSC would be 103m:59s (the length of the actual uncut film). The offical American VHS and TCM print runs 98m:46s.

It should be noted that the early NTSC VHS of The Big Trail has the same catalogue number as the UK VHS (#1362), but it's listed over here as 110 minutes instead of 116. (Fox lists the DVD on their online store as 110 minutes, too, but it's actually 108.) If they have the same Fox catalogue number, they should be exactly the same film.

In any case, I'll get to the bottom of this mystery once the UK VHS is in my hands and converted to an NTSC VHS, then to DVD-R (the same with Reunion in France). For The Big Trail I'll do sync tests with the official DVD release. Such tests can be confirmed using the WinDVD player which has a feature called 'PAL TruSpeed'. Mind you, if the UK version is either 8 minutes longer (no PAL speed-up) or 13-14 minutes longer (compensating for PAL speed-up), the difference will be obvious because of additional scenes not on the DVD.

RoughRider
John Wayne on DVD: A Filmography (http://www.vanc.igs.net/~roughley/john_wayne_dvd_filmography.html)
36517

Hi Rough Rider,
I never thought that PAl and NTSC is the question of speed. Mine VHS player plays both, as well as DVD player.
Regards,
Senta :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Senta@Nov 2 2006, 04:05 AM
Hi Rough Rider,
I never thought that PAl and NTSC is the question of speed. Mine VHS player plays both, as well as DVD player.
Regards,
Senta :rolleyes:
36553


You must have a multi-system VHS player that plays both PAL and NTSC. In Canada and the US such players aren't common. As for RC1 DVD players, most will convert PAL to NTSC, with some models better than others. I think the rest of the world is better equipped for both formats, including TVs that can sync to both correctly.

Speed is a factor when it comes to PAL versus NTSC, but not always. As another example, I just bought the UK DVD of The Green Berets because it's anamorphic and the RC1 isn't. It's 136 minutes but with PAL compensation it's 142 minutes -- just like the NTSC version. They're the same film right to the second.

But with PAL it's difficult to notice the 4% speed-up, so to verify things I synced the RC1 (NTSC) with the RC2 (PAL) and watched sections of the film. Both versions of The Green Berets stayed in sync when the RC2 was played in WinDVD with 'PAL TruSpeed' turned on; turned off the film played 4% too fast (visually and audibly confirmed because I had something to compare).

My region-free DVD player, the one connected to my TV, will therefore play the RC2 disc 4% faster as it gets converted to NTSC. But other RC2 PAL discs don't have speed-up, so one can't make a blanket statement about PAL.

To determine if PAL speed-up is present, you can generally tell if a running time is 4% shorter. For instance, if you know your favorite film is 100 minutes and the PAL video you have is 96 minutes, it most likely has PAL speed-up. The film could be cut, but because it's your favorite film, you know it isn't. So for my PAL videos I always do sync tests in conjunction with a timecode calculator, which is much simpler than having intimate knowledge of a film and all its scenes.

So, yes, PAL and NTSC can be a question of speed. It's just that generally you won't notice it. But it's important when listing correct running times for foreign versions of a film. The early UK VHS of The Big Trail is a good example, which based on what was said here is the longer version. But does the 116-minute running time reflect PAL speed-up or not? To me that's important.

And speaking of that UK VHS, I received mine yesterday. Unfortunately it's the newer release with a catalogue number of 1362S instead of just 1362; the running time on the case says 110 minutes. So even without converting the tape to NTSC, I know this is probably the standard 108-minute version currently available on DVD in the UK and US. (The UK DVD is 103 minutes but has PAL speed-up.) My assumption also means that the VHS probably doesn't have PAL speed-up.

But I've tracked down a copy with the 1362 catalogue number, the one that says CBS/Fox and has a different cover (the one ethanedwards posted). The copy I have is dated 1998, but the early version was released on UK home video in 1990 -- hopefully this is the one I'll get.

RoughRider
John Wayne on DVD: A Filmography (http://www.vanc.igs.net/~roughley/john_wayne_dvd_filmography.html)

i got it today at last, I got it. On VHS 110 min, with Making of documentary at the beginning :rolleyes:

Hi all,
I watched The Big Trail and was really surprised how good it is as a movie. I like Walshs movies and this one too - a real epic. And it is really hard to imagine that it was filmed in 1930.
And Duke was really good for his part.
I like the slow pace of the movie and beautiful locations.
On my VHs there is also very fine documentary about making The Big Trail.
Regards,
Senta

Hi all,
I watched The Big Trail and was really surprised how good it is as a movie. I like Walshs movies and this one too - a real epic. And it is really hard to imagine that it was filmed in 1930.
And Duke was really good for his part.
I like the slow pace of the movie and beautiful locations.
On my VHs there is also very fine documentary about making The Big Trail.
Regards,
Senta

Duke's Movie Locations- The Big Trail

Buttercup Dunes, Imperial County, California, USA

Grand Canyon National Park, Arizona, USA

Grand Teton Pass, Wyoming, USA

Hurricane Bluffs, Zion National Park, Springdale, Utah, USA

Imperial County, California, USA

Jackson Hole, Wyoming, USA

Moisie, Montana, USA

Oregon, USA

Sacramento River, California, USA

Sacramento, California, USA

Sequoia National Park - 47050 Generals Highway, Three Rivers, California, USA

St. George, Utah, USA

Yuma, Arizona, USA

Hello, Keith and all.

I received The Big Trail, the UK VHS listed as approximately 116 minutes. If you remember, I initially received the UK VHS listed as approximately 110 minutes (no PAL speed-up present) with a different cover--the same 108-minute print Fox distributes on DVD. But the older UK Fox VHS is the 120-minute version (compensating for PAL speed-up which is present). It's the same 120-minute version shown on the Fox Movie Channel except the VHS is full-frame. So it's 12 minutes longer than what is currently available on home video; actually almost 14 minutes longer because there's no exit music on the VHS.

The older UK VHS is the one to get. It has the Fox catalogue number 1362; the newer, shorter Fox VHS is 1362S. Maybe the 'S' means shortened? Both versions share the same UPC number, 5013738136250, so don't use that to indentify the different prints.

Although first released in the UK on VHS in 1990, my VHS has both a 1990 and 1996 copyright statement. The shorter VHS has a 1998 copyright, so in between that time Fox UK shortened the film. I don't know whether the longer version was ever released on VHS in NTSC. The 1993 NTSC release is listed as 110 minutes, but I don't know if something appeared before that time.

It's always interesting to see what gets cut in a shorter version. The DVD has two minutes cut in the first 10 minutes compared to the early UK VHS, so things start getting chopped right away.

RoughRider
John Wayne on DVD: A Filmography (http://www.vanc.igs.net/~roughley/john_wayne_dvd_filmography.html)

Originally posted by Senta@Nov 7 2006, 03:57 PM
i got it today at last, I got it. On VHS 110 min, with Making of documentary at the beginning :rolleyes:
36738


Hello, Senta

I'm curious... what VHS do you have of The Big Trail that includes the documentary?

Can you provide details like the UPC and catalog numbers?

RoughRider

Hi,
Where I can find catalog number on the box. I shall try to scan picture on the cover.
Regards,
Vera :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Senta@Dec 4 2006, 12:14 PM
Hi,
Where I can find catalog number on the box. I shall try to scan picture on the cover.
Regards,
Vera :rolleyes:
37471

It's usually on the spine of the box. Is it a Fox VHS? Please scan front and back.

Thanks.

Hi, I shall scan later today. The number on the spine is 0869130 MONO. Yes, 20th Century Fox Home Entertaiment. Renewed on 1957.
Regards,
Senta :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Senta@Dec 5 2006, 07:06 AM
Hi, I shall scan later today. The number on the spine is 0869130 MONO. Yes, 20th Century Fox* Home Entertaiment. Renewed on 1957.
Regards,
Senta :rolleyes:
37511

0869130 is the catalog number of the current (now out of print) VHS of The Big Trail.

So it has a documentary... approximately how long is it? I wonder why it wasn't included on the DVD.

Don't bother with the scan, Senta, since I'll get the VHS from eBay (just for the documentary).

An addendum to The Big Trail on VHS.

I just converted another official UK VHS of The Big Trail from PAL to NTSC, the one with catalog number 1362S instead of 1362. When I received the tape and saw "approximately 110 minutes" on the sleeve, I thought this was the wrong edition so never bothered with an NTSC conversion. Well, the other day I did it anyway and found it's exactly the same 116-minute (with PAL speed-up) version released with catalog number 1362. So both UK VHSes (shown below) are the same, right down to the trailers before the film starts.

[ATTACH]1114]

My next goal is to investigate the first official NTSC VHS of The Big Trail, released by Key Video (a division of CBS/Fox) in 1988. It reportedly also has a catalog number of 1362 with a running time of 112 minutes. Any shorter versions are of little importance, but I'm most curious.

The first UK DVD of The Big Trail, released in 2003, also has a catalog number of 1362 but is followed by 'DVD' (1362DVD). The newer UK DVD, released in 2005, has a catalog number of 0136201009 but has been confirmed to be 103 minutes (with PAL speed-up).

[ATTACH]1132]Hi,
at last I scan the cover of my vhs. It is'n said on it that documentary is included, but it is there.
Regards,
Senta :rolleyes:

[ATTACH]1134] I spent almost half an hour trying to add this attachments - don't know why.

Originally posted by Senta@Dec 8 2006, 12:00 PM
[ATTACH]1134] I spent almost half an hour trying to add this attachments - don't know why.
37629

So I now have the catalog and UPC numbers, and know the tape has a 'making of' documentary which isn't mentioned on the sleeve.

Thank you, Senta.

[ATTACH]1145]
Hi,
this painting "Emigrants Crossing the Plains" by Bierstadt remains the Big Trail.
Regards,
Senta :rolleyes:

OK, more info on the home video releases of The Big Trail.

The initial US home video release of the film in 1988 has a sleeve that says 110 minutes and the VHS itself says approximately 112 minutes. The catalog number is 1362 and the UPC is 086162136238. Being early Fox, it's presented by their Michigan-based subsidiary, Key Video.

The film ends up to be 121m:28s including exit music. It's the same print as the 1990 UK VHS release (which has the same catalog number) but has subtitles for sections where the audio can't be heard. The exit music doesn't appear on the UK VHS either. Confusing, huh? It looks like the audio was restored in the two years in between.

So these early VHS releases are the same as the Fox Movie Channel print except not widescreen. The FMC print doesn't have exit music to my knowledge (at least not my copy).

The 1988 US VHS was repackaged with new cover art in 1993 and retained the same catalog and UPC numbers. I don't know what's actually on that edition, though, nor the final VHS incarnation that has a different cover and catalog/UPC number. In any case, I wouldn't believe the running time printed on the jacket or tape.

The first UK DVD of the film has a catalog number of 1362DVD, but it has been confirmed to be the standard 108-minute version released on DVD worldwide.

I've been told that the really long version of The Big Trail was never released theatrically, that the film premiered in Grandeur at 125 minutes. So what's missing compared to the FMC and early VHS prints would only be a few minutes. Evidently this remaining footage still exists but is in rough shape, especially the soundtrack.

Hi Everyone

I was just settled into watching the Big trail widescreen version I was sent some years ago. It was taped from US TV for me and was the widescreen restored version (MoMA)

I will set the scene for you. I had arranged a time when I was alone, car in the garage so it looks like no one is home, phone off the hook, close the blinds, box of chocs, bottle of wine and a comfy chair.

Was I having a great time? You bet! To my horror at 80 minutes the video went to a basketball game!! I ran the tape back and forth, nearly called the TV engineer hoping I was having yet another senior moment but alas no! It was like Saturday morning pictures and having to wait till the next week, except for me other than watching the end in pan and scan, there is no next week. AND fancy having to show my grand daughter the pan and scan version of this movie!

I remember when I got it checking it but not all the way through and then filing it away.

I have been cataloguing my collection recently and I thought I would have a treat and watch it. I have searched the usual sources and cannot beleive this film has STILL not been released in the widescreen version.

Anyone want to make an old lady VERY happy and point me in the direction of a copy of the widescreen version please?

You all know what I have in my collection that I would be willing to trade for this or if need be I could use the "unmentionable"

Thank you

Hello Everyone

As I said above I have 80 mins of the 70 MM widescreen version, and just wanted to add a little bit of info.

Because only a small number of theatres could play widescreen films, two versions of the widescreen films were always simultaneously filmed, with the cameras side by side and the widescreen camera getting the better angle. By doing this, the film would be able to played throughout the country in 35mm at the same time it was being played in deluxe theatres capable of screening widescreen films.
The original 70mm nitrate elements deteriorated in the 1960s, but a fine-grain CinemaScope (http://cinemascope.totallyexplained.com/)-converted print of the 70mm version was found in 1972 and kept in the Library of Congress, and thus the film was restored to its full widescreen glory in the 1980s and re-screened at the Museum of Modern Art (http://museum_of_modern_art.totallyexplained.com/), and modern viewers wondered what audiences in 1930 had been thinking, since The Big Trail holds up astonishingly well given its age. The wagon train (http://wagon_train.totallyexplained.com/) drive across the country was pioneering in its use of camerawork and the stunning scenery from the epic landscape. An extraordinary effort was made to lend authenticity to the movie, with the wagons drawn by oxen (http://oxen.totallyexplained.com/) and lowered by ropes down canyons when necessary. Tyrone Power's character's clothing looks grimy in a more realistic way than has been seen in movies since, and even the food supplies the immigrants carried with them were researched. Locations in five states were used in the film caravan's 2000 mile trek. The movie was shot in both English and German (German-speaking leading men acted in the German version). Since it was filmed in both 35 mm and in 70 mm Grandeur film (http://70_mm_grandeur_film.totallyexplained.com/), there were two film crews. Amazingly enough, the 70mm version has been seen on cable television while only the 35mm version has been released to video and DVD.

from MoMA

Filmed simultaneously in both standard 35mm and Grandeur, an early wide-screen process, and with versions shot in German, Italian, French, and Spanish for foreign markets (in standard 35mm only and with alternate casts), this 1930 sound feature by veteran silent director Raoul Walsh is an impressive epic of the Oregon Trail. Although hampered by difficult locations and the new and unwieldy Grandeur apparatus, cinematographer Arthur Edeson succeeded in filling the screen with breathtaking natural vistas as well as beautifully composed close-ups of the young stars, Marguerite Churchill and John Wayne (in his first starring role). Moments of low comedy are woven awkwardly into the narrative, but the overall effect is one of high drama. The Museum of Modern Art spent many years on the preservation of this film, working with original elements in its Fox Collection; the result is the first restoration of the complete 70mm wide-screen Grandeur version, copied to anamorphic 35mm.


According to the AMC cable network, the original 70MM elements deteriorated around the 1960s. Fortunately a 35MM Cinemascope transfer was made of the 70MM version before that time, and a fine-grain print of the 'scope transfer was discovered around 1974, and it is from this print that Fox' current restoration of the 70MM version is derived.

It aired around 10 years ago on AMC, and has been recently shown on the Fox Movie Channel.

Thanks to forward-thinking people at the Museum Of Modern Art (which funded the restoration), we today can still see "The Big Trail" the way Grandeur audiences first saw in 1930, at its original 2:1 ratio.

It will probably take another miracle to further preserve the 70MM version digitally, but it is possible. Until then, keep your eyes out on the Fox Movie Channel network schedule to see when this version will air again.

Hi Elly,

I would love for the 70mm version to be released onto DVD! And according to IMDB, the original film ran over a 150 minutes long. How great would it be to see the extra 30 minutes of the movie, that now appear lost.

And Elly, as I'm guessing you realized from your second post, there is no pan-and-scan version of The Big Trail...just the alternately-shot 35mm version. Both were framed and shot in their respective proper ratios (with the 35mm version being the one released to DVD currently).

Hi Elly,

I would love for the 70mm version to be released onto DVD! And according to IMDB, the original film ran over a 150 minutes long. How great would it be to see the extra 30 minutes of the movie, that now appear lost.

And Elly, as I'm guessing you realized from your second post, there is no pan-and-scan version of The Big Trail...just the alternately-shot 35mm version. Both were framed and shot in their respective proper ratios (with the 35mm version being the one released to DVD currently).

Thanks I did realise it was the 35mm I had on DVD. have you ever seen the 70mm version? apparently it is shown on US TV which is the VHS copy I have 80 minutes of!!

The restored print that MoMA has is shown at festivals now and then and often at MoMA itself.

I have seen a widescreen version of this movie offered for sale on ebay in the past, probably a copy from TV. However i am of the opinion that any copy is better than none or an incomplete copy so will have to trawl ebay or beg for a kindly person to record it when it is next on US Television.

Elly

Hi Elly

There are at least 2-3 versions of the DVD out but all are from 35mm print.

As you say the time is right for release of 70mm at 150 minutes.


Mike

It would be great if they could restore the film to its original length one day. I was surprised how good this is for a western that was made nearly 80 years ago.

Hello Everyone

I have uploaded the first five minutes of the BIG TRAIL the MoMA restored 70mm version :hyper:
http://www.skyecast.com/view/110/big-trail-the-70mm-restored-version/

This is the one I have 80 minutes only from :cry2:

Even after seeing this 5 minutes clip I am sure you will agree it is a totally different film in 70mm than the 35mm DVD.

Hope you like it and it gets you all lobbying MoMA and Fox to release it onto DVD

Great clip Elly

Thanks for posting I see the previous clip is John campaigning for Ronnie Reagan.


Mike

Thanks Elly, for all your efforts

Hi Elly,
Thank you for the great clip from Big Trail.
Regards,
Vera

:hyper: I have managed to get another FULL copy of Big Trail 70mm restored version on DVD.

This time when it arrives I shall watch it right through even if the house is burning down around me.

Will keep you all posted. A great find!!

Elly

I have this now. The running time is 120 minutes and No the house did not burn down whilst I watched it:teeth_smile:

On a scale of 1 to 10. I would rate the quality as 8.5 and the service as 9. I would rate the entertainment value and enjoyment factor of seeing this movie in Widescreen all the way through as 20.

The seller is our member Ron, username Big_Guy56

Good News!!!

20th Century Fox has just announced the DVD release of a new Special Edition of The Big Trail, containing both the Widescreen and Fullscreen versions on May 13, 2008. Here are the links to pre-order.

Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/Big-Trail-2pc-Dub-Spec/dp/B0014BJ1A4/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1203604903&sr=1-5)

DeepDiscount.com (http://www.deepdiscount.com/viewproduct.htm?productId=37707397)

Moviesunlimited.com (http://www.moviesunlimited.com/musite/product.asp?sku=D54124)

ejgreen,

THANKS for the heads up!

Chester :newyear:

Sounds Good News Thanks for posting


Mike

Okay... 20th Century Fox has just officially announced a trio of new DVD releases due on 5/20, including If It's Tuesday, This Must Be Belgium, What Did You Do in the War, Daddy? and The Night They Raided Minsky's. The studio also has The Cutting Edge: Chasing the Dream due on 4/1, with The Big Trail: Fox Grandeur Special Edition following on 5/13.

Darn... a day late and too stupid too even bother to check n the appropriate thread :vomit:

It figures. :laugh::headbonk:

Okay so here I am with news on the special features which I found via

http://dvd.ign.com/articles/855/855888p1.html

But is listed in a review on Amazon as well

The Big Trail (Fox Grandeur Special Edition) DVD will feature the following bonus materials:


Commentary with film historian/author Richard Schickel on the 70mm widescreen presentation
The Creation of John Wayne
Raoul Walsh: A Man in His Time
The Big Vision: The Grandeur Process
The Making of The Big Trail
Trailers
Galleries:
Publicity
Original Posters
Pressbook GalleryAnd again, I do realize this is old news, but I am posting it for posterity .

THANKS, Lt. B, for sharing all the goodies that will come with the new DVD offering later this year! LOTS of goodies - that'll make the Mrs. happy, she really likes the extras offered on DVD.

Chester :newyear:

I positevly make my mind to buy this one. The parts I saw (thanks Elly) in widescreen is so great and different that even if it is no special features it worth buying and with features it is absoluly no question of it.

I just finished re-watching The Big Trail. I find it highly entertaining, considering the age of the film it is rather good quality although the sound is sometimes funny. Some of the scenes are magnificent, like when they go down that cliff. Some of the actors do some over-acting like talking too loud but that was often done in the earlier talkies so I'm not complaining. The baddy Red played by Tyrone Power Sr was made unrecognisable. Made you think he desperately needed a bath :wink_smile:

I was completely blown away and it was a treat. The Big Trail has announced the Big Release on May 13, 2008. A 2-disc special edition with many many extras in glourous wide screen for the 1930 classic and it is in Black and White.

Here are the features:
Audio: Mono - English, Spanish / Stereo - English
Disc 1:
THE BIG TRAIL - Widescreen
Widescreen - 2.10
Additional Release Material:
Audio Commentaries - Film Historian/Author
Behind the Scenes - "The Making of THE BIG TRAIL"
Documentaries -
1. "The Creation of John Wayne"
2. "Raoul Walsh: A Man in His Time"
Featurettes - "The Big Vision: The Grandeur Process"
Text/Photo Galleries:
Galleries -
1. Images
2. Publicity
3. Original Posters
4. Pressbook Gallery
Trailers

Disc 2: THE BIG TRAIL - Full Frame
Full Frame - 1.33
Additional Release Material:
Trailers - Fox Flix Previews

The Big Trail (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0014BJ1A4/ref=pe_606_8618830_pe_ar_t6) and John Wayne. Can you ask for more?

Well here is more, it's run time is the full 125 minutes while the other version was 110 minutes. Is that awesome?

Cheers :cool: Hondo

Great news Hondo. Glad to have a Duke film get the special treatment this year. I hope there are a few more to come this year.

There is only one more title that I am aware of that's been announced, How The West Was Won: The Ultimate Collector's Edition. Due this fall.

Hi

I'd cheerfully wait for that one provided its released over here.

Regards

Arthur

I was completely blown away and it was a treat. The Big Trail has announced the Big Release on May 13, 2008.
And just in time for your birthday, too :wink_smile:!

Sounds like one to add to the collection, to be sure.

Chester :newyear:

As it is, I can't wait two months. I want it now! But I will have to control my anticipation.

Wow, this would be a GREAT addition to any Duke fan's personal library!

Mike, thanks for this announcement. As my B-day is in May, I now know what to tell anyone of my family members who asks me what I want for my B-Day. I already have a copy of it on DvD-but this will be cool to have. ;-))

Well, not all the movies are new to video. There is a box set and a new release of "The Big Trail". Here is the info that I found:

Fox has now released details on its May western DVD releases. The Big Trail: Fox Grandeur Special Edition is a two-disc release featuring a digitally restored and re-mastered presentation from the original 70mm widescreen theatrical release as well as the full-frame version that was also released theatrically. Supplements will include audio commentary with film historian/author Richard Schickel on the 70mm widescreen presentation; four featurettes (The Creation of John Wayne, Raoul Walsh: A Man in His Time, The Big Vision: The Grandeur Process, The Making of The Big Trail); various photo and poster galleries; and trailers. The Fox Western Classics Collection is a three-disc set with a separate disc for each of Garden of Evil, Rawhide, and The Gunfighter. Garden of Evil will be presented in anamorphic widescreen with audio commentary by Nick Redman, Steven Smith, John Morgan and William Stromberg; two featurettes (Travels of a Gunslinger: The Making of Garden of Evil and Henry Hathaway: When the Going Gets Tough…); and restoration comparisons. Rawhide (full frame as originally shot) will have two featurettes (Susan Hayward: Hollywood’s Straight Shooter and Shot It in Lone Pine!); the theatrical trailer; restoration comparisons; and a still gallery. Surprisingly, The Gunfighter will only have its theatrical trailer plus trailers for several other Fox westerns.

John Wayne: The Fox Westerns, due on May 13th. It will be a five-disc set including the new two-disc SE of The Big Trail, The Comancheros, North to Alaska, and The Undefeated.

Most of us have all the Duke films. But the re-release of "The Big Trail" will be a welcome addition. As well as some new documentaries about Duke.

I am thrilled that the Special Big Trail edition is coming to DVD, I still find it hard to believe that it was almost 80 years ago that it hit theaters.
I would like to add that this fall, Warner's is releasing a special edition of How The West Was Won.
I wish that Lionsgate would get off its royal rumpus and release those other republic films that Duke made in 30's and 40's. And while I am wishing for stuff, I wish for his 6 Universal films from the 30's as well, and a pony to boot.

I wish like other's here that Lionsgate would release a enhanced version of "The Quiet Man". The one that is out now could be so much better.

sxviper

i wish they would release the quite man down here we have it on video but not in any form on dvd unless you want it from china

cheers smokey

Hondo I was wondering what type of scenes comprise the added 15 mins on this version.

Here is an issue of a March 7, 1931 English magazine, Boy's Cinema, with the story of The Big Trail. It has a few other stories in it as well.

Mark

http://www.dukewayne.com/imagehosting/2148017659cf867.jpg

Here is an excellent review by Stuart Galbraith IV of 'DVD Talk' regarding the two disc special edition of "The Big Trail", for the first time since it's 1930 premiere run in it's original widescreen format:

http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/33120/big-trail-2-disc-special-edition-the/

well I watched my new copy of the big trail today and man, I love it. The new widescreen presentation is just amazing. And seeing fourteen minutes of footage that has een "lost" for eighty years is also very awe- inspiring. I loved the movie before, and this spectacular rerelease has only made it better

dc65,

Thanks for the update! I had forgotten about this release, but it sounds VERY enticing!

Have you had a chance to watch any of the extras yet?

Hondo, did you get yourself a birthday present . . . a la The Big Trail?

Chester :newyear:

I did get a chance to watch a twelve minute featurette on the granduer process that was very interesting. Most of what they tell you has been posted in this thread, as to what happened and why it didn't succeed. There are more featuresttes, but I haven't had a chance to watch them yet!

Thanks Jim, for finding these posts.
And as you say it does have the unfortunate effect
of bumping the filmography/synopsis,
several pages into the thread,
which obviously is illogical, for the good of the movie review.

I attempted to do this when compiling the Movie Reviews,
and found this a major problem.
There are endless earlier threads,several about the same movie,
with bits and pieces, here and there.
Attempting to merge them, was a logistic headache,
so I decided, that the compilation of the Movie Reviews,
should be the new starting point,
and anything before, left to be.

In most cases, as I have done here, I copied
the earlier posts into the thread,
therefore still having all the posts under one roof.
In one Movie,
The Alamo (http://www.dukewayne.com/showthread.php?t=3755)
you may have noticed,
I asked Jay, if I could edit in the filmography/synopsis,
into his initial thread, and that worked well!

old january 31st, 2004
jdw


hello everyone! I'm new to the board here at jwayne.com but have been a huge duke fan my whole life. I would like to know if anybody knows of any plans of a cleaner, better, newer version of "the big trail" to be released? Twentieth century fox certainly didn't do it justice. This was one of the first widescreen movies to be filmed and yet they released it in full frame format. Besides that, the original film ran somewhere around 145 min, so why is the dvd release only 108 min long? Finally, and this is the least of them, there are no extras on the dvd. An old classic like this deserves much better. If any body knows anything about future plans for this film, i would certainly be interested. Thankyou.

old january 31st, 2004
general sterling price
0

the big trail is simply a story of hard luck. This film is the chicago cubs and boston red sox of jw films. Its a great show, but under a curse. It was released at the time of the stock market crash, and was a box office failure. It contributed to a false notion that no one wanted westerns, and the genre all but died until stagecoach a decade later. It also killed the career of the leading lady in the film, and sent wayne back to the poverty row b studios where he wouldn't make his escape until stagecoach. All that for a film that really is pretty good. Then when it was "rediscovered" the sound track was damaged, and so part of it is missing, and then when the dvd was released, they didn't do anything special for it. Go figure. I really like the film.

Gsp

old january 31st, 2004
chester7777


jdw,

welcome to the john wayne message board, the best of it's kind on the 'net! You have found the greatest place for john wayne fans to hang out and have some thought provoking and fun conversations about one of the greatest stars to ever grace the silver screen!

Gsp pretty much said all i know about the big trail. I agree that the missing section(s) of film and lack of more bonus materials on the dvd would be disappointing, but considering how old the film, we're fortunate to have any of it at all, especially after hearing some of what itdo has to say about film deterioration.

Check out some of the other threads on new releases and such. Plenty of info there.

Chester
__________________
old february 5th, 2004
robbie


is this true that segments of 'the big trail' are missing is this on the dvd version alone or also on the vcr version.

__________________
regards
robbie

old february 5th, 2004
saddletramp


hello there jdw; .....nice to meet you, as to the big trail being edited it seems to be a common thing on dvd's. Searching on e-bay for some films can be a problem. I usually e-mail the seller for the running time of the video if it isn't listed on their page. I have bought a couple dvd's that were edited versions and was very dissapointed. No bodys fault but mine because i didn't do my research. The imb is a good place for reference to the running times on movies. I find that vhs usually are the full length features but they should still be looked into if you are not sure. One thing i also find now is that some of the new stuff is in color now instead of b+w. I may get flack from the b+w purists but i do like the color versions a little better. Keep the posts coming jdw and watch the "duke" with a friend....saddletramp....

old february 5th, 2004
robbie


quote:
Originally posted by saddletramp@feb 5 2004, 05:59 pm
hello there jdw; .....nice to meet you, as to the big trail being edited it seems to be a common thing on dvd's. Searching on e-bay for some films can be a problem. I usually e-mail the seller for the running time of the video if it isn't listed on their page. I have bought a couple dvd's that were edited versions and was very dissapointed. No bodys fault but mine because i didn't do my research. The imb is a good place for reference to the running times on movies. I find that vhs usually are the full length features but they should still be looked into if you are not sure. One thing i also find now is that some of the new stuff is in color now instead of b+w. I may get flack from the b+w purists but i do like the color versions a little better. Keep the posts coming jdw and watch the "duke" with a friend....saddletramp....
february 5th 2004
robbie

hello again saddle tramp

it isnt your fault you purchased an edited dvd, it should never have been edited in the 1st place. Regarding dukes movies i was wondering if this messagebaord should start a section stateing the movie and its exact running length in minutes. Even if one source states 130 minutes and the running time is actually 131 you could miss out on a minute extra duke time which by anybodys standards would be bad. ;) how or where would a person go to find the exact running time, i have over 60 duke movies on vcr and a lot were taped from tv so for all i know some may have a scene or two missing.

__________________
regards
robbie

february 6th 2004
saddletramp


hi robbie; .....i get some of the running times off the internet movie database. How close they are is something i don't know. I think most of their info is close. Another trick i use is e-bay. Find two different sellers, one with a vhs and one with a dvd and compare the running times. Some times a quick e-mail to a seller will get you the info you need or at least the info they have. I recently bought the hurricane express on dvd only to find it was edited to 78 min. I then bought one on vhs and it is 227 min. Quite a bit of editing! It seems that it is usually the dvd's that are edited. I don't know if it is for quality or what. Vhs are usually fairly grainy on the real old stuff but if i can't get the whole thing i don't want it. I don't think i am the only one who has suffered this deception. The three musketeers is another one that i have seen edited on dvd. It should run about 210 minutes, give or take a couple min. Shadow of the eagle is another at 218 min. These are all 12 part serials. And beware the young duke series . These are 3x56min. Westerns cut down to 69 min. And if you see the high and mighty or island in the sky in dvd it is a scam. I have seen one e-bay seller trying to sluff this off. He won't answer my e-mails when question him so i think he is a crook. Ask questions when buying. If you can't get them answered to your satisfaction then move on to some one who will.....saddletramp.....

old february 6th, 2004
hondo duke lane


jdw,

welcome to the greatest message board in the world for a great talk about john wayne. I have the dvd version of the big trail, and it is 108 minutes. In my filmology of john wayne movies, they list the movie to 125 minutes. There is 17 minutes from the original.

I broke down and bought this movie, but neglected to check the time. I haven't sit down yet to see this movie, and i don't know what will be missing, nor will i know after i see it, since i haven't ever seen this movie before. But i'd be interested in knowing why 13% of this movie is missing, and it's not because it's saving dvd spcae.

Cheers, hondo b)

old february 6th, 2004
saddletramp


hello hondo duke wayne;.... I do believe some of these films are edited to fit in a 2 hour time slot for tv. I recently purchased big jake and there is a scene that i had never saw on tv. Before. It was when they were picking buckshot out patrick's backside after the shootout with the texas rangers and the kidnappers. They just have to have room for advertising. For those who have satelite or cable tv. Maybe they run full length,i don't know.....saddletramp....

old february 12th, 2004
robbie



hi saddletramp (do you have any other names that you would prefer to be called as i don't like calling you saddletramp it sounds a little rude)

that buckshot scene is commonly cut out of tv versions of big jake according to the imdb, i suppose it isn't really important to the storyline, however i do wish that if tv broadcasters do decide to show movies they show the entire movie and do not edit them to accommodate their own agenda.

Regarding 'the big trail' does the vcr version have the full running time

[
12th february 2004
nathan brittles



some time ago, i read somewhere that all the serials have an edited version released as "feature film" in cinemas.
Several films were released for the second time some years after the first. Sometimes second releases were shorter. Maybe the big trail dvd is a second release.

old february 12th, 2004
robbie


nathan brittles welcome to this messageboard

does this mean that there could be a first release of 'the big trail' in its entire version within the marketplace.

__________________
regards
robbie

old february 13th, 2004
hondo duke lane




this is the first release of the big trail. I have kept up with most of duke's movies, and when this movie was released, i didn't realize that is was shorten. I am very disappionted. I haven't seen this movie yet. And i had it for a while now.

Cheers, hondo b)

old february 15th, 2004
itdo

there are several versions with several different lenghts.

As you all know, the big trail failed at the box office mainly because fox introduced a new widescreen process. The theatre-owner were supposed to rebuild their moviehouses accordingly with a wide screen but with the depression going, this was a money gamble they wouldn't take. So the big trail was seen in this format only in a handful of cinemas. Fox wouldn't re-introduce the idea for another 20 years. But then cinemascope came back to stay. This original 70mm print (you notice the difference) was 158 minutes long. I imagine this included an overture music, maybe a walk-in music, entr'acte, exit music, as it was the case with such an "event" film. But when fox buried the idea of widescreen it certainly had no more use for the 70mm print - it just couldn't run anywhere to make money. So you guess yourself what they did. Fact is, that print wasn't reintroduced later.

At the same time, fox was wise enough to print the standart 35mm prints. That print was 125 minutes long. By the way, at the same time, walsh even shot another film for domestic market: A german version with german actors in the lead role.

The print now commonly used is the 108 minute print on the dvd. I have seen it on a movie-screen once being exactly the same, and that print came from the swiss cinematheque, the national film-archive, which is one of the largest. So my guess is the print that went into the archive - if it made it at all because there is no rule to it - is the 108 min. Print.

Of course, we shouldn't give up hope that through some miracle the widescreen print pops up. You never now. But chances are slim. Maybe somebody in the us wants to inquire directly, either at fox or at the library of the congress.

old february 22nd, 2004
itdo

have watched the dvd and compared to the 1990 fox-video release. It's the same length, the same version (the fox pal video declares running time approx. 116 min. There's another difference about lenghts: Pal and the us format, ntsc - spell: Never twice the same color - run at different speed).

So i wanted to let you know we don't get cheated by the dvd version. It's still the same one.

old february 22nd, 2004
chester7777

itdo,

quote (itdo @ feb 15 2004, 12:50 am)
quote:
And that print came from the swiss cinematheque, the national film-archive, which is one of the largest
haven't heard of this film archive before, is it as big as our library of congress archive? I would presume you have allready checked it out for other rare films,
maybe of a john wayne variety

chester

ps looks like you are very close to your 600th post. ;)

The wife and I watched The Big Trail the other night. She loves Duke anyway, but the young Duke she just thinks he is so cute.
Ward Bond wasn't credited for his character in the movie, I guess that was a common thing in early movie releases. The Pete Morrison listed is he related to Duke?

Ward Bond wasn't credited for his character in the movie, I guess that was a common thing in early movie releases. The Pete Morrison listed is he related to Duke?
That's right Jeff, in fact in some scenes
Ward can be seen mouthing everyone elses words, without realising.

It is unlikely Pete Morrison was related to Duke,
not that we know of anyway!

just watched "the big trail" and while i wouldn t class it as a favourite, it was interesting and fun to see john wayne running about as just a kid. some of the lines made me laugh and it brought home how hard it must have been for the original settlers. i agree that when you think about how old the film is, we re lucky to have it

Any opinions or viewings on new released version of Big Trail from Fox?

http://www.foxstore.com/detail.php?item=5483

I own an original script and screen continuity from the 1930 movie THE BIG TRAIL, I have made a few copies of the 150 page item if anyone is interested to purchase for a small fee, or trade. Please send me an email if you are interested at:
stagecoach50@sbcglobal.net
Thank You
Andy

I have one copy of the big trail script left with a copy of the DVD, I will not print anymore. The cost is a flat $20.00 and this includes free shipping within the USA. Please contact me at-Paypal required.
stagecoach50@sbcglobal.net
Thank You

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I thought the Big Trail was a very good movie considering when it came out. Bad timing with the Depression at the same time but I have seen other movies that came out about that time,,,(Public Enemy,, Little Ceasar,,and a King Kong from 33) and the acting is pretty much the same. I got the DVD but no extras so I will be getting the 2 DVD set.... Its a favorite of mine as you got to see how he started in films and his style of acting back then. Some of the other players in that movie,, yes I agree, were horrible...... but,,most did act like that because they were mostly stage actors, which the Duke wasn't .

Lloyd Fonvielle's mardescortesbaja.com site has a post today which is illustrated with a lovely still of John Wayne and Margaret Churchill in The Big Trail.

http://www.mardecortesbaja.com/

If you don't know this site, you may want to spend some time looking around. Lloyd is a huge John Ford fan and writes beautifully about his films. :)

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