I was wondering if there are any professional bodies set up to correct erros in John Waynes movies such as supposed dead people clearly breathing or special effect wire cords visible etc. I know of other films such as ET and star wars having mistakes corrected and scenes changed via modern tecnology surely some people are or could be helping to preserve John Waynes movies better.

Robbie,

You ask challenging and good questions. I don't know of any organization who has corrected any bloopers made in John Wayne movies. There are bloopers found in his movies on DVD.

Here's a couple. In Red River, Duke's wagon is struck by a flaming arrow, causing a large burn hole in the left front part of the wagon. At the Red River, the hole is visible. In The next shot, the hole isn't seen. The next shot shows the hole once again. Upon Duke's arrival at his future ranch site, there is no longer a hole.

Also, in Red River, during the climactic fight between Duke and Montgomery Clift, Duke's hat is knocked off of his head. The scene cuts to Walter Brennen for his reaction to the punch. The next scene features Duke's hat getting knocked off once again.

I watched this movie the other day. I was told about the bloopers, and watched to see for myself. Sure enough, it's there on film.

To change what film makers did would alter what people saw years ago, and take away what was first seen in the original feature . I am sure if directors and/or editors caught the bloopers, they would have corrected it before going out to theaters. They missed it, and for the most part so did the audience.

Hondo :)

Thanks Hondo for that compliment

If your interested although I cannot confirm this for sure I think a mistake at the end of the shootist was erased when it was transferred to DVD. On the video version when Duke gets shot at the end you can see a special effects wire at the bottom of his trousers but in the DVD version it is supposed to have been corrected. I have not seen the DVD version so I do not know but if it true then it would be an excellent breakthrough and if mistakes are being contantly fixed it would lift his movies to even new levels. Can anyone confirm if this mistake has been corrected or not?

hi robbie,

i don't think that we should fix the mistakes in the dukes movies, the reason being that my son enjoys them in their original form even noticing that the same indians are shot over and over again. i believe that to much modern input would distroy the wonders of the time the mistakes make them that much more enjoyable to watch and not so clinical as are modern movies.


cheers smokey

Smokey
You have put across a very good arguement but I still disagree with it. I think that Johns movies would be improved if the mistakes in them were corrected as I am finding mistakes in his movies as of late to be rather distracting and they take away the greatness of his movies. For example and this is the worst I have ever seen and nobody who has ever viewed this movie would have missed it but in the searchers the viewer can clearly see and hear a supposed dead Indian breathing whom was located under a sandstone. All I am suggesting is that for this scene the Indian could be froze and the breathing noise dubbed via modern technology. In order to accomodate everyone the viewer could have the option of watcing the corrected version or the original. Everyones happy. Does anyone agree with me on this and does antone also know if anyone is actually trying to correct mistakes in Dukes movies.

:huh:

hi robbie,

you have put forward a valid point for the dubbing of the sound in some of jw's movies as you said you can hear the dead breathing, but i still think that we should keep the movies as orginal as possible as they are mostly great viewing for both young and old and they are now our classics. we all have our own opinion and we must learn not impose our ideas onto others. as i said you have some valid points but please remember some of us like to remember the simpler times when these classics were made.

cheers smokey

Smokey has given a pretty good arguement as to why errors should not be corrected but what do other John Wayne fans on this messageboard think about correcting errors in his movies.

I agree with Smokey. I like the movies to stay as original as possible, which includes black & white format. This is the way it was presented at the original openings at the theaters. I sometimes wonder what happen to other characters and what happen after the movie is over. But the beauty of that is I can use my own imagination, and better enjoy the context of the movie. As for the errors made in the production of the movie, unless it so obvious that it distracts me from the movie, then I don't worry about it.

This is the way to get the most out of Duke, and many of his characters. I really enjoy the chemistry they bring to a feature, and storyline. Thanks Smokey for your comments.

Hondo
:lol:

I 100% agree with the fact that Dukes black and white movies SHOULD NOT be colourised as I saw the Longest Day and Red River in colour and they were both ruined.

Watching Dukes movies as they were originally made would be impossible I am afraid for those of you who would be against changes to them. The reason for this is that computers have fixed the quality of pictures erased harlines that would have been originally in them from the beginning etc. The next step is obviously dealing with the content of these pictures and eradicating errors to which I personally would have no problem with. The reason for this is because the films were originally intended to be without errors by the makers etc and I think that big Duke before production would have wanted his films to be error free and that is what correcting mistakes in his films will do. I am not suggesting major changes ie introducing new characters but simply freeze framing actual character whom are supposed to be dead but who can be seen breathing.

Remember that there are a lot of the B movies of Johns that do not have the original soundtracks on them now wouldnt it be brilliant via the use of computers etc to remaster them and input the original soundtrack back onto them.

Hope people at leat find my views thought provoking

cya Robbie B)

Some Very Good Points, Robbie; ^_^

I know age of the original films are damage due to storage, and wear, and restoration is important. I am for that. I am aware that changes in some films have been made to improve the quality of the film without making major changes, like the soundtrack music, dialogue, and sound effects. I accept that, but I don't want to see a story line changed because somebody else thinks it's better. I like to see it much like the director intented it to be mistakes included.

Your point about the character breathing when he's suppose to be dead could be a distraction, and I saw him doing it in "The Searchers," & I suppose John Ford would have shot that person if he saw what we see today, but as I stated in my last message in this post, if it doesn't distract from the movie, then I don't have a problem with it, and it doesn't bother me. I didn't let it distract my attention from the movie.

Computers have really made changes in movies that I can appreciate. You are right that with the technology the vanishing (or blur) of the pictures are better, the lines that somehow show up on the master copies of the older films have disappeared on DVD, the can sound or noise in the background due to age has cleared up, and even the lost footage have been manipulated to make a film complete. No arguement that has happen to older films including John Wayne pictures. I can accept them as is, and collect them as my complete library. In my opinion, I would prefer to see them in their original format the way the directors released them to the general audience.

I will say that correcting something that has been damaged is much different than correcting errors from the original film.

Some people like the colorized versions of movies that were orignally shown in black and white. I myself enjoy them better in the original way. There is something about that I just like to see, that gets me one step closer to how the audience watch movies in the old days, at a Saturday matinee, or on a date at the dirve-in movie. We've lost that part of America maybe forever, and I just want to keep that as long as I can with what I have in my collection.

It isn't complicated, just an old fashion system that I embrace, and hope others will as well.

Hondo B)

P.S. What really bothers me, in Duke's as well as other movie especally on TV is when they delete scenes to make it time condense. That really bugs me! You don't always know what's deleted number one, and I sometimes think that they could do that on home video (VHS and/or DVD)! Now that makes me mad!

I'm with Hondo on this one! I think that watching older movies is about just enjoying the industry in it's relative infancy. If we want seamless stunts and visual affects then we should go to the new release isle in your video store, but us Duke fans obviously appreciate some of the simpler aspects of entertainment. I don't believe that the little errors detract from the movies and trying to fix them might just ruin the authenticity of duke's work. No matter if there are small errors they still can't ruin the majesty of the duke's lines like Big Jake's "Not hardly" or "No matter what else happens I'm gonna blow your head off." Or True Grit "Fill your hands you son of a bitch!" Or better yet, The Cowboys "...And on my worst day I could beat the hell out of you." These are just a minute few of the great lines that the duke carries off in a way that no one else ever could, little errors can never detract from those and his screen presence. One of my own favorite sayings is: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" And I don't think it's broke.

This message is a testament to the agelessness of duke's work. This is the opinion of an 18 year old. I've grown up in the computer generated special affects and tireless editing age of movie making and I'm a die hard John Wayne fan, I don't enjoy modern films anywhere close to as much as his. The duke and his work have had a very large impact on my life and how I conduct myself. Let's not cheapen it by sweating the small stuff.

Respectfully,

Idaho

Robbie

I agree with you on this one it would be nice to correct small errors in Dukes movies such as microphones visable or camera crew and equipment and so on and so forth. This would bring Waynes movies to new heights and would be a good way to preserve them. I would also like to suggest that the sound be fixed on his old b movies as the iccorect music is somtimes played and the sound is not always correctly alligned with the movies and they look like they are voice overs on them

I agree that these movies should be left alone. But I do get a kick out of seeing some of the mistakes that were made. The Cowboys has a good one. When Mr. Anderson takes the boys out to see Crazy Alice. Before they saddle her she is a sorrel. In the next scene she is a bay with a black mane. These mistakes that were made in the movies show how far the industry has come. The Wayne era was pretty much the pioneer of movie making. Remember the quote, "Trial and error."

Kwirt

Hi Kwirt

You have stated some major mistakes in your thread and I hope you dont mind me correcting you.

You stated that the Cowboys is a pioneer movie but it is far from a pioneer movie it represents the modern western as we know it today.

You also stated that "These mistakes that were made in the movies show how far the industry has come". In actual fact the industry has went backwards with regards to mistakes when one remembers that Titanic made in 1997 has over 300 mistakes in it including scenes where people are killed and later on are visable in lifeboats. Your average modern movie contains at least 60 errors.

In this regard Johns movies were very well made and I continue to press my opinion that mistakes should be corrected. In order to comprimise to everbody we should have two versions of each movie the corrected and the original.

Besides anyone who has bought the DVD of the searchers will notice as I have done one glaring mistake corrected.

Hope my views dont upset anyone and I also hope that some John Wayne fans will agree with me on this.
B)

Hey!
I wouldn't worry about those in power correcting any mistakes on movies. I have just recently purchased The Day the Earth Stood Still. In one scene, Gort picks up Patricia Neal to take her into the spaceship. In order for the actor who plays Gort to pick her up, Patricia had to lay on a hospital gurney with wires attached. The wires raised Patricia up for the scene, but you don't see the gurney or the wires in the older VHS. At least you didn't until the movie was cleaned up and digitized. Now you can see the wires really easy. And thats the way they released it on DVD.


I wouldn't worry about any John Wayne movies being totally overhauled. At worse there may be some music added if it's a silent film, but John Wayne didn't have any movies that he starred in that's silent.


If they didn't change the scene in Green Berets where at the end JW is talking with the little boy, and the sun was setting on the wrong side of Vietnam, then I don't think they will change anything in the movies.


The studios do employ a person to check to make sure little things are right between each take. They check the background, where the actors are standing, all little details. Sometimes though, something slips by them.

But speaking of older movies, sometimes it can't be helped. Flying Tigers for example, when you see the P-40s, does anyone notice that they aren't always the same model?? When the movie was made, there were 4 different models of the P-40. You can tell by little differences of the aircraft, like the cowling (where the engine is). The thing is, the U.S. Army had only so much stock footage of the aircraft to be used. Even the modern movie Pearl Harbour couldn't get the P-40 right. Anyone notice that a P-40 had U.S Navy printed on the side?? The Navy never used the P-40 for any reason. And even though the movies was recently made, the P-40 they used was a late model P-40N that was not in production until the end of the war. You just have to overlook something in order to produce a movie.

But in my opinion, leave the movies alone. If your going to fix the errors, why not just finish the job and colorize all the black and white films too?? Digitize them ok, clean them up so thier colors look great again, outstanding, fix scratches in the film, fine, fix the sound, great, but thats all. Leave it the way the directors wanted them, this is how the movies were originaly shown, thats why they are called "The Classics".

B)

Hi There Baron

Regarding your message about this subject you have certainly raised some interesting topics. Your arguement seems to not only be against corrections but also about films being digitally remastered to improve the quality. I am very much in favour of films being digitally remastered and of corrections being made to them. The corrections I am stating though are simple ones that would not disrupt the film or its content all I am suggesting is to erase wires, microphones, improve bad dubbing, and to clean up scenes in which dead characters are breathing in. This would improve JWs films no end. I am sure most people are happy with the fact that spotlights that were visible in the film the Searchers have now been corrected in the DVD version. You also mentioned the mistake in the Green Berets regarding the sun and why it was not fixed, the answer is that it is too dificult and we have not progressed technologically enough. Anyone else got an opinion on this subject?

B)

Hey Robbie,

You miss understand me, I AM in favor of remastering the film. I like the quality and the clearness of the film.

I am also in favor of fixing the sound. In older movies it can be a pain when you can't hear the sound.

I am in favor of cleaning the film so the color will look at its best and doesn't look faded or washed out.

What I'm talking about is your wanting to fix the scene in "Green Berets" to make the sun sunset right. Why?? I understand what you are wanting to do, but it isn't what the director wanted to do, right or wrong. Even mistakes as little as a microphone, it really isn't worth the time or money to fix. Besides, the majority of people won't even notice.

;)

Robbie,

After watching The Searchers again last night, I think that the Indian that appears to be breathing is in actuality just having his insides jumbled around by large maggots. He's not really breathing.

What do you think?

Chester :wacko:

Chester,

I thought it was regormortis setting in. ;)

Bought Big Jake on DVD yesterday, man it looks great! Might watch it again today.

Dreaded glitch! In "Big Jake", after Christopher Mitchum rides up to the train station on the motorcycle and spooks the horses, dumping John Wayne into the mud pit, there is a scene of Wayne on his horse and the mud stain is gone from his jacket.

Nobody has mentioned this, and I cannot confirm it, but somebody told me recently that in the movie, The Undefeated, there is a pick up truck that can be seen in the background in one of the scenes. The person didn't say where in the movie this occurs (if indeed it does) and I really didn't feel like watching the movie to look for it, so thought I'd ask here if anyone has ever noticed this?

Chester :unsure:

In North To Alaska - a climactic fight occurs in which Duke is punched. As Duke's head snaps back, his toupee falls off. Somebody told me that, and I am about to purchase that DVD. I will go over it, and tell you if it happens. Robbie, you should enjoy that one. (Ha-ha).

Hondo :rolleyes:

robbie,

i was watching a modern movie on telly(TV) last night it was the dirty dozen and there are mistakes in it as well if you watch for them one i saw was a german gets a light then walks away and before he walks away the other bloke is standing with the cig down in the next sence he is having a puff then the next cut shows it as it was in the first place so you can see some mistakes do get missed even in todays modern techo times.


cheers smokey

Hondo you are 100% correct about that mistake but you will only see it if you watch the film in slow mode or pasue it at the correct time.

I stumbled across something very interesting when I watched the Searchers today which I taped of TV last week. The scene with the breathing dead indian has been slightly corrected with the noise the Indian was making dubbed out although you can still see him breathing. The scene with the Futterman attack has been corrected so the spotlights are no longer visible. On the video version that a freind of my has when martain pulls a knife out on Ethan it switches from his left hand to his right and then back to his left in the same shot. But on the version I taped of the tv we only see the knife in his right hand via a different camera angle which was very interesting. If anyone saw the version of the searchers on ITV in the UK they can confirm these changes.

Smokey well done in spotting that little mistake. In fact when it comes to John Wayne movies there are pretty few which shows how well made they are. Titanic is reported to have 300 mistakes in it, the funniest being some people getting killed on the ship and later being spotted out on lifeboats.

B)

Robbie

Having recently seen the searchers on Tv a few saturdays ago and having read some of your encouraging words for the film im going to hit you with a few mistakes which ive noticed on my second watch of the tape recording.

The posse foiled the chasing Indians by...riding through a river. I thought it was vampires that couldn't cross running water, not Comanches. Didnt comanches use names for themselves like running water.

The Comanches where as bad a shot as the storm troopers in starwars.

The little girl is living with a bunch of (ahem) savages out in the Arizona...OK, OK, Texas desert, where did she come up with the lipstick?
:P

Well Shootister

We must have watched the same version so you can confirm my findings.

The comanches were not all that bad of a shot one hit Duke from great distance with an arrow, what scene do you feel that their shooting inabilites were highlighted in.

The comanches were re-grouping before they crossed the river and waitng for the chief to lead the attack.

Im not so sure that Debbie is wearing lipstick watch it again ;)

So shootister did you feel that the Searchers is the best movie ever made?


B)

Yeah perhaps we did watch the same version

the scene in which their shooting inabilities and i think its safe to say either inabilities or awful directing is when they out numbererded the posse by about 20 to 1 and failed to kill the entire posse.!!!!

But they didnt cross the river in that scene, waiting, you what????

I am sure its lipstick see the film again.

Harldy the best movie ever made rubber tie,

I suggest you watch the movie again and take note of these mistakes, and then you will agree with me. off you go and watch the film again now.